Posts tagged "risk"

JC 083: Finding Your Grit with Keir Weimer

January 22nd, 2020 | no comments

Taking on Big Challenges and Calculated Risks.

Keir Weimer has a passion for taking early-stage ideas to market and growing teams, cultures, and businesses around them. Despite his success today, Keir’s journey was anything but easy. At the age of 23, he was convicted of vehicular manslaughter after causing a tragic boating accident that killed his friend.  Keir had to overcome life struggles and decided to become an entrepreneur.

Today, Keir is an internationally recognized, luxury real estate agent and team leader. He is also a successful real estate and lifestyle entrepreneur, having founded and grown several 7-figure businesses in the areas of luxury brokerage, investment, hospitality development, and now a multimedia company. Keir is considered an expert in these areas and has broken free from adversity with his unique life story. His success has been featured in major global media outlets such as the Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Bloomberg, and Sotheby’s International Realty.

Keir Weimer joins John Carney today in The Real Estate Locker Room and discusses pulling yourself up from your bootstraps and learning how to list luxury properties.

Key Points:

  1. You will accomplish great things when you put your mind to something, create a mental road map, and are patient.
  2. Find your circle of support. Never give up on the vision and persevere until you reach it. Write it out, make it part of your daily routine, be accountable for it, and get to work
  3. In order to be successful, you must be willing to work through the obstacles and setbacks.
  4. Don’t be intimidated by big challenges. Try, don’t stop just because you don’t have experience. Build a vision, build a strategy that supports the vision, and take a calculated risk.
  5. Tips for getting started in real estate:
    1. Chart out a vision if you want to get started.
    2. Know your skillset.
    3. Find the people with the expertise you need.
    4. Work with mentors.
  6. Personal growth tip: Schedule time to be creative.

Favorite Athlete:

Favorite Books:

Pro tip:

  • “Don’t count time. Make time count.” – Mark Weimer

Resources Mentioned:

Reach Out to Keir Weimer

  • keirweimer.com

Thank you, Keir, for taking the time to share your story and life advice with the audience.

Listen to all the episodes of The Real Estate Locker Room Show and sign up for my FREE monthly newsletter at www.johncarneyonline.com

Connect with John Carney
Facebook: @JohnCarneyOnline
Twitter: @John_M_Carney
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© John Carney 2020

 

JC 025: 3 Keys to Real Estate – Scale, Value and Risk with Ike Mutabanna

September 13th, 2017 | no comments

Learn how to penetrate new real estate markets

JC 025: 3 Keys to Real Estate – Scale, Value and Risk with Ike MutabannaIke Mutabanna is a real estate entrepreneur and the president of Dallas, Texas based IHM Business Group. Ike also hosts the successful podcast, “The Side Business Show,” where listeners learn how to grow their wealth through running a wide variety of side businesses.

Over the last 15 years Ike has spent time as co-founder, president and CTO in a variety of startups and turnaround companies. He’s originally from India where he attended the University of Bombay, India and earned his BE degree. Ike also has a MS degree in Engineering from the University of Cincinnati.

Ike is an active commercial real estate investor and multifamily syndicator. In his downtime you will find Ike pursuing his newfound passion for mountain climbing, having recently started training for technical climbs on rock cliffs.

The 3X advantages of syndication versus single-family investment:

1) Risk diversification is much better in a ten-unit apartment building versus three single-family houses.

2) Economies of scale is better in terms of net income. The more net income allows you to hire property managers, allowing you to focus your time and energy on further investments.

3) Value appreciation – you have the ability to force appreciation with creative strategies to increase rent and overall income and push the value of your properties.

Five key points:

  1. When investing instate you have the definite advantages of knowing your local market and the ability to study that market in depth, without needing to rely on other people to relay information. You can easily build networks by attending meetups and creating partnerships.
  2. When investing out of state it is essential to take the time to build a trusted and solid team before proceeding with investments.

 

  1. Take advantage of your opportunities when you are investing instate: visit neighborhoods personally, study the local markets, take detailed notes and photos of different neighborhoods and create a thorough database which you can easily refer to when looking into new investment opportunities.

 

  1. Multifamily syndication provides the opportunity for much larger scale where investors can achieve larger returns on their investment

 

  1. It is important to find an activity outside of your business that inspires you and that will assist in training your mind and help you maintain an energetic and motivated state. You then transfer that energy back into your business.

Favorite athlete: Sunil “Sunny” Gavaskar – Famous Indian cricket player.

Learn about the game of cricket here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket

Favorite books:

Favorite quote: “When you want something really, really bad and you take the action to achieve it, the universe comes together to help you achieve it.” The Alchemist – Paulo Coelho.

Check out The Side Business Show podcasts and contact Ike here: www.thesidebusinessshow.com

or podcast: thesidebusiness.show

Thank you Ike for taking the time to share your story and business insight with us.

Listen to all the episodes of The Real Estate Locker Room Show and sign up for my FREE monthly newsletter at www.johncarneyonline.com

 

POST GAME REPORT: Episode Transcript

JC 025: 3 Keys to Real Estate; Scale, Value and Risk with Ike Mutabanna

Learn how to penetrate new real estate markets

Announcer: Welcome to the, “Real Estate Locker Room Show” with John Carney. Did you know investing in real estate is a team sport? Join John and his guests as they explore the business of real estate and athletic competition. The goal for this show is to grant you direct access to the real estate pros that are closing profitable deals and growing their businesses. On the “Real Estate Locker Room Show” we are getting in the ring with successful investors, developers, operators, and all of the industry professionals to learn what it takes to achieve on-going success. Now it’s time to kick-off and level up with new ways to grow your real estate business.

John Carney: Welcome back to the Real Estate Locker Room Show everybody. I’m your host John Carney, coming at you from my office here on the sunny Westside of Cleveland, Ohio this fantastic Monday afternoon in the month of August. We are going to be talking to a real estate investor and entrepreneur Ikbal Mutabanna, who is on the line and joining us in The Locker Room from Texas. But before we get into that I just want to remind you: the purpose of The Real Estate Locker Room Show is to help you as an investor or a real estate professional who supports the industry in some capacity, or someone who’s looking to break into real estate — we really want you to be able to: number one, recruit the best team of professionals that you can to work with you; to position yourself for success and really elevate your real estate game.

The person who we’re going to be talking with has definitely done that. We met through networking. Here you go, I’m up in Ohio and being connected to Ike and his business partners from Texas and Colorado. So that is just a matter of being in the game and participating in networking events I suppose. But anyways, welcome to the locker room Ike.

Ike Mutabanna: Hey, thank you John. I’m excited to be here.

John Carney: Yea. I’m stoked to have you. So, let me just let the audience know a little bit about you. Ike is his nickname, but Ikbal Mutabanna is the president of IHM Business Group. His previous business ventures include strategic technology services, commercial real estate syndication and multifamily acquisition. Ike is also the host of a podcast called The Side Business Show, where listeners learn how to build wealth through a variety of side businesses, regardless of whether they are full time employees, stay at home mums or students.

Previously, Ike spent 15 years as co-founder, president and CTO in a variety of startups and turnaround companies. He earned his MS degree in engineering from the University of Cincinnati and a BE degree from the University of Bombay in India. Ike enjoys mountain climbing and has recently started training for technical climbs on rock cliffs. He lives in Dallas, Texas with his wife and two beautiful children.

Alright, so let’s get into it Ike. Not only are you an entrepreneur on the technology side and experienced business operator, but you’re also a real estate investor.

Ike Mutabanna: I am.

John Carney: Well, before we get into everything that you’re doing real estate related I like to warm up on the show and just get the conversation going with a few sports related questions. Do you have a favorite athlete that you looked up to as a kid?

Ike Mutabanna: As a kid, that’s a good question. Yes, there was actually. The only caveat that I will say John is that, because I grew up in India, some of the sports played there are different than the sports that we are familiar with in the U.S. So you being — having lived in Australia you’re probably familiar with cricket and field hockey.

John Carney: I am definitely familiar with cricket and my wife is a huge fan, so I’m into the test match cricket.

Ike Mutabanna: Right, right. So as far as cricket is concerned, there was a very famous — so cricket, for those of our listeners who don’t know what that is, it’s a game very similar to baseball, just a slightly different shaped bat and a ball that is made of living material, and a few different rules.

But we have an Indian player when I was growing up by the name of Sunil Gavaskar, also known as Sunny, who scored the highest number of runs in cricket at that time. He was later, of course, his records are broken about 15, 20 years later, but while growing up he was my idol in a sense. Not just for the game but also for his sportsmanship and his gentlemanly conduct in everything he did.

John Carney: You know, for the audience who — I know we have global listeners out there — but for the audience here in the states or North America who’s not familiar with cricket, it is a gentleman’s sport. But don’t take that as — these balls are travelling incredibly fast right at you. And they spin, right?

Ike Mutabanna: Yea they spin. I mean the spin is I think far more than I’ve seen in baseball, just because of the fact that it also bounces before it hits the batter.

John Carney: I just don’t see myself getting padded up and in the nets in front of a fast bowler anytime in my life.

Ike Mutabanna: Yea, I’ve done that, I’ve been hit quite a few times so I like the field now.

John Carney: So, you grew up playing organized cricket when you were living in India?

Ike Mutabanna: Well, it’s interesting, even though cricket was a very prevalent game in India, it still is, in fact, it’s considered to be the second biggest religion in India, after Hinduism. The reality is when I was growing up, India was actually the champion in world field hockey so that’s the game that I played most when I was growing up.

John Carney: Which, now you’re in North America, and it’s really, we’re an ice hockey culture.

Ike Mutabanna: We’re an ice hockey culture, exactly. So I watch ice hockey, it’s similar. Different enough that I don’t necessarily follow it anymore. But yea, that was I think my passion all the way until college and then it fell apart once I left college.

John Carney: Alright, well thank you for sharing that history of growing up in a foreign country with our audience and bringing a new sport to the forefront of the conversations we have here in The Locker Room, and we’ll make sure that we link in plenty of stuff related to Sully and cricket in the show notes.

Alright, so real estate: we were talking when we met here in Cleveland about your past work experience. You lived in Indonesia and worked in technology startups and now you’re here in the United States. You went to school in Ohio and got an advanced degree and real estate is something that you’re pursuing.

So why don’t you give the audience the ten-thousand-foot view of what you do in the real estate game?

Ike Mutabanna: Sure. So I started real estate in a very small fashion about three or four years ago. I used to live in Boston, Massachusetts and, you know, like most people in this industry who first — who are not from real estate backgrounds — their first instinct is to go buy a single-family house that they can rent out. Or a duplex. And that’s pretty much what I did for a couple of years. Never really made that much of a profit from doing that, because generally the financial economics of that doesn’t work out too well. Your vacancy can hit you if you have vacant periods, when there’s turnover of tenants you tend to then get hit by all of the changes and the maintenance things that you have to do in the house. So I never really took it very seriously.

But about a year and a half ago, when I had moved to Dallas by then, I got introduced to our common friend actually, Joe Fairless, who is big in the multifamily apartment building business. And that really intrigued me, because of the economies of scale in that business. So I started studying it, I invested in a couple of those last year, and as I started doing that and studying the markets really well, it became apparent to me that that is really where real estate can achieve the kind of scale and profit and goals that you can strive after, right? Where you’re not going after the small little peanuts that you can get in the single-family world, but you’re really going after something that can build generational wealth. So that’s what intrigued me. I started going after it. And then really entered that full time at the beginning of this year.

So since then I’ve been working on syndication for large apartment complexes in DFW. I’ve got about three that I’ve invested in so far, and around the time that I started looking at expanding that portfolio is when I got introduced by my partner in Colorado to Cleveland. It just so turns out that his family is in Cleveland and we started just hearing this little buzz about Cleveland from a bunch of different sources. So that’s what brought us to Cleveland, that’s when I met you John and since then what I’ve been doing is working on expanding the network of people that we know in Cleveland, and trying to figure out how I can put in place all of the different players I need in order to be successful in the Cleveland market, considering that I’m going to be an out of state investor.

John Carney: Right, and that is — let’s talk about that. You’re in state in Texas. Are you in city? Are you in Dallas or are you looking at markets outside of Dallas?

Ike Mutabanna: Well, so far, I haven’t looked at markets outside of Dallas. The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex itself is so massive that you can easily consider it to be equivalent to three or four different cities all meshed together. So there’s just such massive opportunities happening here that I’ve not really had the chance to look at other parts of Texas. We did briefly look into Houston, decided not to venture that at this time because, while Houston was attractive say about a few years ago, I think the dip in oil prices hit the economy pretty hard. So that doesn’t mean there are investors who are not in there, in fact there are investors in there who are actually grabbing up properties because they’ve gone done in value. I just don’t play in that particular niche. My goal is to play in the niche of looking at really stable class C plus or B type properties where we can really work on doing some amount of repositioning, but largely focus on the cash flow aspect. So we haven’t really done into Houston.

We looked at San Antonio, the market felt a bit too small but I haven’t ruled it out. In fact, just last week made a really good contact there and there’s a potential that San Antonio might be on the horizon. I did meet another person who started investing in San Antonio from California. So clearly there’s interest in that market as well.

John Carney: Yea, so. I suppose — I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Ike Mutabanna: That’s fine.

John Carney: The question that’s sort of coming to my mind is, not only are you — you’ve moved around in the United States, so you’re establishing a business in multifamily real estate in your home town at the moment, which is Dallas, right? And then you’re also looking to other markets.

So whether they’re in state or out of state, let’s talk about how you went about recruiting your team locally, and then how that translates into how to be time efficient and find the right people in another market. Because this is an important message that I’d like to get across. And I believe that you’ve got the experience to give the pro tips on how to achieve that.

Ike Mutabanna: Sure. So there’s a substantial difference between investing in state and out of state. What happens is, in in state, as I started becoming familiar with the market, really studying the market, the ability for me to be on the ground made it much more of a favorable situation, where I did not necessarily have to depend on others to confirm things for me. If I heard of a particular neighborhood which was on the upswing and there was some good developments happening there, it would be a 15, 20-minute drive for me to get out there, park my car, walk around, really study the neighborhood in detail. And I have a habit of making lots and lots of notes. Every time I go to a neighborhood I’ll sit down and I won’t carry too much, I’ll just carry my phone with me. I enjoy using Google Keep. So I’ll just start making notes, I’ll take a few photographs.

But I’ve built up a huge databank of notes of a lot of the neighborhoods in the Dallas area. And that’s something I can do on an ongoing basis, which is really helpful because that means when I get an opportunity presented, or one that I’m looking at, I don’t necessarily have to depend on a pro-forma or someone else telling me what is the potential of an area or not.

But when you go to out of state, you no longer have that luxury, right? Unless you’re willing to fly down like two or three times a month. You really don’t have the luxury to go and do that on a regular basis.

So the big difference between how I’ve been able to do things in Dallas versus when I’m targeting a place like Cleveland, is that in Dallas I’ve done a lot of the groundwork myself and now I’ve spread the word, I’ve gone and attended meetups, which again, something I can do when I’m in state but I cannot do when I’m out of state. And I’ve made a lot of contacts. I’ve also made — I’ve created partnerships with larger firms, people who are much bigger than me in this industry, and many times, rather than finding my own deals, I go participate in their deals.

Interestingly, one of the companies I partner with, they actually are not in Dallas themselves, even though one of the partners is originally from Dallas. So when they get deals it’s easy enough for me to go validate their underwriting and all of the assumptions they’ve made, to make sure that I’m comfortable with it. Again, something not so simple to do when you’re out of state.

So as far as Cleveland is concerned, we realized early on that the only way we were going to be successful is if we spent the time upfront in building out a solid team before we even took the first step of identifying and trying to evaluate a property. So in fact, to be honest, I haven’t evaluated a single property so far, from an underwriting perspective in Cleveland. All I’ve been working on is just a slow, patient process of talking to people in Cleveland, finding the right set of partners in every different area that I need. So whether it’s property managers, whether it’s brokers, whether it’s lenders, title insurance, CPAs, lawyers. We’ve just been going methodically one by one talking to people.

I did visit Cleveland for about a week, which is when you and I were able to meet up, thankfully. And that was a very instructive week because again, as I said, because of the fact that in state, while you get a really solid lay of the neighborhoods, you can’t depend on a map or someone telling you something to realize what works and what doesn’t.

While I was in Cleveland, as an example — I’m sorry if I’m rambling, do stop me so that I can focus in a particular direction you might want John — but as I was looking at the area near Case Western Reserve University, what we found was, literally after crossing three streets there was dramatic change in the nature of the neighborhood. It went from a neighborhood where I would consider under my strategy a very desirable area to buy a multi-family, to a neighborhood where I would want to stay away. And in fact we encountered police cars, when we went up and talked to them and the police officers told us to stay away from that section. We’re talking about a few streets, we’re not even talking about an entire neighborhood changing. So that’s a big disadvantage that out of state investors are going to face when investing in an area that’s not in their backyard. And it’s very important to do some groundwork but then build a really, really superb team that they can over time depend on.

John Carney: Right, you definitely want your boots on the ground, reading from the same sheet of music as you, and you want their marching orders to be clear. So I’m familiar with the area around Case, and I’ve scouted it out, and literally, you come across the wrong side of the tracks are the wrong side of the tracks.

Now I’ve done similar work to yourself, I invested and built a business around Phoenix, Arizona, based on a solid team and good relationships and limited knowledge of the area, and was successful and loved that market. But you have to have — in our case it was an investor who was also a real estate agent was our go-to guy. And he would be the first one to tell you, “No, that side of the street is no good, this side of the street is great. And I’ve got three houses here on this side of the street. Would never buy something on that side of the street.” So, that’s all sound advice as far as pros and cons for looking at your home town versus out of town. And then talk a little bit about the syndication. How does that look if I want to invest with you? Give the audience a little bit of: I wake up in the morning and work on this so that I can buy a building with this many doors.

Ike Mutabanna: So I think one of the factors about syndication is the economics of it, right? I work on syndication in the DFW area, primarily on really large properties. So mostly which is 100 doors or more. What that brings in is the kind of scale where you can not only achieve much larger returns on your investment, but you can also drive a much better return for your investors.

So one of the goals we try and do is that we try and ensure that we can return a certain amount of cash flow back to investors which we give them as a preferred return, and our goal is to try and beat what they would have got from alternative sources. So when most investors, sophisticated ones, when they talk to us the first thing they’ll say is, “Why can’t I just put this in a hedge fund or put this in an XYZ mutual fund where I can easily get 5, 6 or 7 percent returns?”

The argument that we have to be able to provide them is that not only can we exceed that, but the fact is that this is being backed up by a hard asset. So it’s very important for that to be an asset that is truly valuable.

Now many investors, when they get into syndication, there’s a different strategy that people will follow, right? Because of the fact that we follow a very cash flow driven philosophy, we don’t necessarily look at appreciation from a very wide angle. We don’t go after really large appreciation. So we stay away from properties where there is speculation that there might be five, six, seven times growth. Usually what happens in those cases is that either the market is severely undervalued because of some reason that we don’t necessarily know yet, or it’s in a neighborhood where there is a speculative element telling you that appreciation is going to happen but you have no way of knowing.

On the other hand when you go to a more conservative underwriting technique, where you say that we think we can get 2x or 2.5x multiple on this property, but we can drive 10% cash flow returns, well now that becomes very attractive. Because we’re not promising you that for every 50k you put in you’re going to get 150 or 200k back, but what we are saying that is that on a yearly basis we’re going to be able to return 10% back to you, which in most markets is a fantastic return. You know, you’ll be lucky if in certain places you can get even five or six percent, which usually matches what aggressive investors can get in the stock market or in hedge funds.

So our syndication philosophy is very much driven around finding properties that are larger scale, 100 plus doors, in fact almost every one I’ve done is 200 plus doors. And where we can — our underwriting can be conservative enough that we can promise, not promise, but rather where we can project, very conservatively, that we can return the capital with ten percent returns on a yearly cash basis, as well as potentially reach a 2x multiple.

John Carney: That all makes sense to me. And I’ll sort of come back at you with my summary. My question being, do you bring improving the property and raising the rents, right? You didn’t mention that, but is that part of your overall strategy?

Ike Mutabanna: Absolutely.

John Carney: Okay.

Ike Mutabanna: Absolutely. That’s always part of the strategy John. The extent to which you can achieve that can vary, our goal is always to find properties that are — where the rents are some percentage below what the market can bear. And one of the things that we try to keep in mind is that when we project our financials on the basis of doing the rehab and the renovations for repositioning, that we’re not projecting that we’re going to go try to match the market, we’re just going to try and improve the rents to come close to the market but still stay below. Because that’s what insures that we’re left with some buffer to deal with market fluctuations.

John Carney: So to recap: you’re finding units, your sweet spots, plus or minus 200 doors. You’re not trying to set a record in that area for the highest rent, what you’re trying to do is find undervalued properties that are undervalued by rent and fix those up and improve the multiples so that your investors get a preferred return and then you can scale the business model by replicating it. Would you say that’s accurate?

Ike Mutabanna: That’s a great recap.

John Carney: So we just acquired a large asset. It was a complex capital stack. Having a seat at the table through this entire process from the day we first went and looked at this building, until where we are now, under construction building 29 units out. That’s almost coming up on a year for the work.

But I would throw this back out to you and the listeners: once you have been invited into a multifamily deal that’s a little bit more complicated than your standard single family home transaction, you’ll learn that with the right team in place you can go back out and do it again. Would you second that?

Ike Mutabanna: Absolutely. You do it once. The first time is definitely frightening. It’s also really, really hard. I think a lot of people under — they don’t realize how hard it can be to convince investors when you’re doing it for the first time. But once you’re over that hurdle; you’ve learned the business; you’ve learned how your entire process flows; you’ve learned the language, you’ve learned how you’re able to communicate with investors, what you can and cannot say. It starts becoming a lot more second nature to you the next time around. And you just get better every time. And you keep learning as well.

John Carney: So let’s carry that thought on and — I’m going to pick your brain here for just another couple of minutes before we wind this up — but three tips that you could give a listener or someone who, if you’re approaching an investor, what would be — sorry I’m a little all over the shop.

I’m just going to pick a number out and say $50,000, or maybe I’m too high, maybe $25,000 can get you a seat at the table. Talk about the three advantages of being in real estate through the syndication model. Especially if this is something that you want to pursue as a career. You have to get started and you have to learn somehow. So why not get started now with someone like yourself? So what are the three advantages that you can offer up to the listeners that would say, “Hey, think big, play big and this is why?”

Ike Mutabanna: Sure. So I would say that the first thing is almost self-evident, which is the economies of scale. There is absolutely no chance that in the single-family world you are going to achieve the kind of scale that you can achieve in multifamily. And the scale goes in many different directions, right? It’s not just in terms of the net income that you can derive, but it’s also the risk. When you have three single family houses versus a ten-unit apartment building, your risk is diversified in a far better way than when you have those three houses. So the risk diversification.

There’s better economies of scale in terms of net income, there’s also economy of scale in terms of the cost, right? How you manage the cost. Once you start going into larger size properties in multifamily, you find it easier to be able to afford to have property managers who can manage things for you where you’re just more of in a supervisory role. That makes it easier for you to start than once you’ve done one to go to another, because you’re not managing everything yourself. When your single-family world, unless you amass a really large portfolio of maybe 10, 15, 20 properties, you necessarily may not want to hire a property manager to do it for you because that then cuts into the little income that you’re making anyway on those. So those are the big advantages that I would talk about.

The other interesting advantage that you would see in multifamily is that, unlike single family, where the valuation of a single family, which is dependent on the market comps, in the case of multifamily it actually depends on the rental income that you can drive. Which means you can force appreciation. So if you can come up with creative ways in which you can increase rent, you can increase overall income, you can force appreciation in the valuation of that property, which is something that is phenomenal. What other asset can you think of where you can actually decide how much — and as long as, of course, certain parameters are fulfilled where you can push the values up by actively doing things in that property. So I would say risk mitigation, economies of scale and value appreciation. Three really solid reasons why multi family is a far superior asset.

 

John Carney: I love it. Great advice and thanks for coming up with those quickly on the spot Ike. Well I wrap this up with what I like to call the two-minute drill. And these are just a couple of questions I’m going to throw at you rapid fire.

Are you a reader? And if so do you have a favorite business book or non-fiction book that you’ve read more than once or you made some notes in that you keep on your desk and refer to from time to time?

 

Ike Mutabanna: Yea I’m a reader. A very avid reader. I’ll mention two books. One is non-fiction and one is a fiction but which has a lot of — it’s really influenced me a lot in my business life. The non-fiction is a very old book by Dale Carnegie called “How to Influence People.” Really old book, some of the things in there might sound outdated, but the underlying principles are really solid. And they relate to always having what he calls a “you” attitude. When you’re working with someone how do you do something for them is what you should be thinking about, because when you do that, it all comes around eventually.

The other really awesome book that I’ve kept close to me is called “The Alchemist” by Paulo Coelho. Even though that book is a fiction book, it’s usually coded more in the circles of people who like to read books that sound spiritual in nature. It is spiritual and it has helped me from that perspective. But it has also helped me motivate and inspire myself in what I’m doing. There’s a very interesting sentence in there which I’m going to paraphrase. It says, “when you want something really, really bad and you take the action to achieve it, the universe comes together to help you achieve it.” Which I think is fantastic. It’s a phenomenal way to think about something.

 

John Carney: So I’m going to use that in the show notes as your favorite quote. And I like that. I mean, I don’t know, there’s a lot of good motivational sayings that come from business leaders and athletes alike about overcoming the odds and the obstacles, and I think I’m kind of looking back now, some of the people I follow, on my social media threads are quoting the stoics.

So nothing is outdated because guys like Marcus Aurelius were writing this down a long long time ago and it’s pretty relevant to life and business today, right?

 

Ike Mutabanna: True, very true.

 

John Carney: Okay. Well one last question. How do you train for success? You’ve moved around the world, you’re a successful person, you know how to recruit a team. But how does that look like? How do you achieve that consistently?

 

Ike Mutabanna: I think what I try to do is always take up one activity that is not related to my business which I take up as a passion activity. Something that I put a lot of energy and effort into and that usually helps me train my mind to stay in that super energetic state, which then transfers into my work and business as well. So what I’ve recently started doing is — I mean I’ve always been an avid mountain climber, I’ve never really done any kind of technical climbs, it’s usually just been putting on my hiking boots and going with a bunch of friends and trying climbing whatever peaks are accessible. But about a year ago, I started realizing that if I really wanted to scale some heights here I needed to learn how to do technical climbs. And so then I went ahead and joined this local group that does a lot of technical climbs and they have beginner’s groups as well. So I’ve started doing that, it’s very early stage yet, but my goal is within a year’s time to get to a point where I can go climb at least one intermediate level peak in the U.S. which involves some amount of rock climbing.

 

John Carney: That’s a great goal. That’s a highly — you have to be very highly focused and strong to scale intermediate level fixed rope climbs. So I mean, I wish you the best of luck in learning that, and not that you won’t achieve it, but that’s going to be a practice. It takes mental and physical discipline to build up that stamina to be good at it. I lived in Colorado for a number of years, I was never a fixed rope mountain climbing type person. There’s so many sports and activities available out there that that just wasn’t one that I fell into but when I see photos of the people I know standing on top of these spires, it’s awe-inspiring. So that is great, thank you for sharing that.

Alright, well there you have it folks. I truly hoped that you picked up some actionable advice today from my conversation with Ike. And I want to thank Ike for taking the time out of his busy day to join us in The Locker Room. Where can our audience find you if they are interested in following you online or maybe even connecting with you to talk about syndication opportunities?

 

Ike Mutabanna: Sure. I think the easiest way is to go to my podcast website: it’s called thesidebusiness.show. You could also go to thesidebusinessshow.com and it has both my podcasts and also my contact information on it. I’d love to hear from your listeners.

 

John Carney: Perfect. You’ll be easy to find then. Alright. There we are.

Make sure that you check out the Real Estate Locker Room Show on iTunes, Stitcher or Google Play and hit that subscribe button to ensure that you never miss out on the pro tips from our great guests like Ike.

The mission here once again is to help you elevate your real estate game and be successful. If you like what this show is all about, I’d be grateful if you would leave us a five-star review on iTunes, Stitcher or your preferred podcast platform so that other like-minded real estate professionals and people just like you can find us when they are searching for real estate shows.

The post-game report show notes, links and additional content related to this show, specifically to the wonderful world of cricket, will be available on my website: johncarneyonline.com/podcast, and while you are there feel free to drop your email into the newsletter sign up form and you’ll occasionally receive some real estate investing insights, tips, tricks, hacks and useful tools from me.

Remember to stay focused on your goals, have fun and stay in the game. I’m your host John Carney and until next week, please remember to work hard, play hard and profit hard in your real estate game.

One more time, really thankful for you taking the time out of your busy day Ike to share your story of success.

Ike Mutabanna: My pleasure John. Thanks for inviting me.

(Music Out)

End Audio

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© John Carney 2017

JC 010: How to Identify the Perfect Insurance Agent with John Mark Tichar

May 10th, 2017 | no comments

You want an insurance agent with real estate investing experience

Insurance is a business expense but not all agents are created equal. Learn what skills and experience you want your real estate insurance agent to contribute to your team and portfolio.

John Mark Tichar joins us in the locker room this week to share his real estate story and pro tips for success in the competitive business of real estate and insurance.

When you shop for insurance are you seeking an agent who has the relevant expertise and knowledge of what it’s like to have skin in the game? Before settling into his roll with the Oswald Companies as a full time commercial real estate insurance agent John Mark worked for a real estate developer, multifamily property manager, single family home fix n flip investor and financial services provider.

“There is no silver bullet for success” John Mark attributes his success to showing up every day and working hard. He distinguishes himself from other insurance agents with his history as a real estate investor, property manager and project manager. John Mark’s experience of getting his “hands dirty” allows him to identify with the emotions and risk of his clients.

John Mark earned the real estate game by being proactive and doing the hard work. Find a mentor, get hand on experience and create your own opportunity.

Real Estate is a Team Sport

The fundamentals of investing are the same at all levels of real estate. The team is the same for 20 properties or 200 properties. The quality of the investment, your team and the experiences is what matters. The volume of property you own is second compared to quality of the investment.

Insurance

You don’t want a generalist insurance agent. You want to have an insurance agent who has invested in real estate at some point in time. Insurance is a line item in your operating budget. However, as an owner you must have a serious approach to mitigating risk.

Favorite athlete – Mike Piazz

Recommended reading –

  • The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas Stanley & Willima Danko
  • Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin

5 Key Points:

  1. Be consistent day in and day out
  2. Get up, go to work and learn on the fly
  3. To be successful you have to focus on a niche
  4. It takes time and persistence to be successful
  5. Understand the costs & risks up front

Success tip – “Duplicate your success and learn from your failures “

Thank you for taking the time to sharing your story with us today John Mark.

John Mark works at Oswald Companies in Cleveland, Ohio http://www.oswaldcompanies.com

You can connect with John Mark on LinkedIn or email him direct at john.mark.tichar@gmail.com

Listen to all the episodes of The Real Estate Locker Room Show and sign up for my FREE monthly newsletter at http://www.johncarneyonlie.com

POST GAME REPORT: Episode Transcript

The Real Estate Locker Room Show with John Carney

JC 010: How to Identify the Perfect Insurance Agent with John Mark Tichar

[00:00]

(Music Intro)

Announcer: Welcome to the real estate locker room show with John Carney. Did you know that investing in real estate is a team sport? Join John and his guests as they explore the intersection of the business of real estate and athletic competition. The goal for this show is to grant you direct access to the real estate pros that are closing profitable deals and growing their businesses. On the Real Estate Locker Room show, we are getting in the ring with successful investors, developers, operators, and all of the industry professionals to learn what it takes to achieve on-going success. Now it’s time to kick-off and level up, with new ways to grow your real estate business.

 

John Carney: Welcome back to “The Real Estate Locker Room Show.” I’m your host, John Carney, coming at you today from Cleveland, Ohio. Today on the line, we’ve got a great guest, John Mark Tichar. He is the Vice President, Real Estate Sales Leader and shareholder at the Oswald Company’s headquarters in downtown Cleveland, Ohio. So, this is a valuable team member we’re going to be talking to. We’re going to be talking about insurance: John Mark works on the high commercial end, multi-family and commercial projects.

John Mark graduated from John Carrol University in 2005 and began his working career for a real estate developer and contractor called Woodfield Homes, West of Chicago, in a town called Rockford, Illinois. There he managed a construction schedule and subcontractors of five to ten projects every six months, valued between three and five million.

John Mark also provided property management and asset management services to investment property. During his time with Woodfield Homes, John Mark spent his off time looking for his own investment properties and focused on distressed and foreclosed single-family homes in the Rockford area. His first two deals yielded 25K and 20K in equity respectively, while providing cash flow: positive cash flow. It was during his time on construction projects, managing investment property and eventually owning investment property, where John Mark found his passion and true calling for real estate development and real estate investing.

Prior to joining Oswald Companies, John Mark worked in financial services, both in insurance and wealth management, so he has a lot of experience there. And over the last seven years at the Oswald Companies, he’s had the opportunity to apply his real estate background skills to service the unique risk management and insurance needs of his clients, established real estate developers and investors.

Welcome to the show John Mark, and thank you for taking the time out of your day to share your story with our audience and join me. How are you doing today?

John Mark.: I’m doing great John, thanks for your time and thanks for the invitation to be on your show. I’m looking forward to it.

 

John Carney.: Perfect. Well let’s kick this off. I like to ask our guests a question to kind of get the conversation going. This is the Real Estate Locker Room Show, so we’re going to ask you a sports related question and tie that into the business of real estate. Growing up, was there one particular athlete that you admired? A professional athlete or an amateur athlete that you looked up to?

 

John Mark: There was. My first love in sports is baseball. I’ve played basketball and football as well, but baseball my first true love from a sports perspective. And I was a catcher basically my whole entire young career as a baseball player. Mike Piazza from the Los Angeles Badgers was my favorite player. A little-known fact about Mike Piazza is that he wasn’t even drafted into major-league baseball. He was identified outside of the draft by a scout and was invited to try out for a team. So he basically came up through the ranks of baseball to become one of the baseball greats. It’s just a great story of persistence and never giving up on your dreams. Those are some of the characteristics that I liked about Mike Piazza.

 

John Carney.: Looking back at that particular athlete, I remember Mike Piazza’s playing days. He really put catchers on the map, so to speak, especially in the national league. Was that story inspiring to you as a young athlete, looking up to Mike?

 

John Mark.: It was inspiring. He’s a guy that just did a great job. His job day-in and day-out was very consistent, and as I was growing up he was the catcher to emulate. He was just a great role model that I thought would be good for me to portray myself against and emulate to the best of my abilities.

 

John Carney.: We’re going to now jump over to the nuts and bolts in the real estate side. But I like to draw the comparison between the business of real estate and the business of the team aspect, and just go back to what we learned in our younger years competing on teams. Because it’s very much a team-driven industry, and you have insight into how commercial developers and property owners and operators work at a very high level, and you’re a valuable player on their team by offering the insurance solution, would you give us a little bit of the background on how you settled into that niche in the real estate game?

 

John Mark.: Yea, part of the bio that you read discusses my, or shows my early involvement right after college. As a college graduate, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do exactly after college, and I had started to read books in my spare time about business. One of the themes that kept on hitting me, just kind of in my gut, and just a thought that I could never shake, was real estate. At that time, I didn’t know what that meant or what that looked like, but it was just a concept that I thought really resonated with me.

And so, during my years working at Woodfield Homes, I learned a lot on the fly, through just consistent application: getting up out of bed and going to your job, and doing to the best of your abilities, and learning on the fly, and just through that time I really came to enjoy and loved the game of real estate. And after that, when I came to Oswald, in the insurance base, it’s just such a niche driven industry.

 

If you want to be very successful you’ve got to focus in on a niche. Or firm is the fiftieth largest insurance broker in the country, so we have a lot of niches in private equity, construction, manufacturing and whatnot. We didn’t have a big presence in real estate, so I just decided to put to use my experience, both with the job at Woodfield, managing investment property and then eventually owning my own investment property. The foundation I think of any real estate operation in the country really, is what I experienced, and understanding the fundamentals and the foundation of what those operations look like. I feel this has really set me apart against my peers. And basically, I would contribute my success to just getting out of bed every day and hustling for business. There’s no silver lining or silver bullet that I think puts people on the map right away. It takes time and consistent persistence. So it’s just the daily application of using the work ethic that I’ve been blessed with, and going out and developing relationships and being a trusted advisor, and just over time being able to win over clients based upon my attitude and the extra things that I bring to the table that’s different than my competitors.

 

John Carney.: So, showing up and consistency is what is driving your success at the moment. Do you look back at when you made a change? In your down time when you were working in your first job for the construction company, you could have sat around on the weekends and gone to baseball games and hung out with your friends, but you chose to go out and dig up properties, and then put in the time and energy and money, your own time energy and money, those three precious resources, into fixing up these homes and running them as a business. So, do you believe that that experience just helps you identify with your clients better, especially on the insurance side?

 

John Mark.: Absolutely. I think one is: I get respect from my clients, having known my background and the fact that I got my hands dirty and have actually gone through the act of real estate investing versus standing on the sidelines like maybe other advisors and talking about the philosophy of real estate and of investing and how it should look which is a lot different than getting your hands dirty and having done it.

Understanding the ups and downs of real estate investing and the cycles and the challenges that everybody faces on a daily basis is what really sets me apart.

It was really when I started managing my boss’s investment properties. It was a small company, Woodfield Homes, and I worked with the owner on a daily basis. I got the manager’s investment property, and I applied the financials to an Excel spreadsheet and just looked at projected expenses. I applied projected appreciation over a period of time, and the math was just a compounding effect and was just a powerful calculation for me. And it just really gave me a very deep impression, a very good impression of real estate. I think that was the visual that I needed to really have the lightbulb go off and say “I know I like this business, but now I get to see the power of real estate financially and what it can mean from a lifestyle perspective.” That really made me come to just really love the business.

 

John Carney: So, that’s a great experience early on, and it sounds like the principle of Woodfield Homes was there as a sounding board and a mentor, if I’m reading between the lines, is that correct?

 

John Mark.: Correct, yes. I mean, he basically had this investment property and I went out and it was sitting vacant, just because it wasn’t part of his core business. I saw an opportunity to collect an additional six or seven thousand bucks a month in rental income. It was a multi-family property. So in my hours working for him, I would hire his subcontractors, and we would go fix up this property and get it rented and then I would sign leases with the tenants; I would manage the cash flow and the expenses; I would handle tenant issues; any move outs I would get them re-leased, so it was just a very hands-on experience for me. I didn’t read a book about it, I didn’t go to class for it, but it was just an example, or an experience that was the best way for me to learn. That’s the best way for me to learn, is just by doing it on a daily basis. And every day you learn something new and you apply little nuggets of learning experiences, and you apply those going forward and slowly things continue to get better and better, and you get better at your job.

 

Your right, that was spot on. He was a great mentor, it was a great opportunity for me to even get into that, have that experience. So for that I’m grateful for his willingness to let me run with those projects.

 

John Carney: Yes, that’s a unique opportunity that, now that we’ve dug into it a little bit more, sounds like you created your own opportunity: you created the opportunity and ran with it. It wasn’t given, it was created. I love stories like that, it’s very entrepreneurial. What I’m interested in sharing with our listeners right now is that you have that story, and you mentioned it’s kind of a smaller scale investment property. You have the opportunity every week to meet with your clients who own much larger operations on the commercial side. Can you talk a little bit about the parallels you see between an investor starting out with a few small, single family homes or a multi-family, and scaling that into something large? And do you see the team players that the larger operators have as identical, similar, different? Could you give us a little bit of insight into what you’ve learned just by playing at such a high level?

 

John Mark.: Yes, I think you kind of hit it on the head there: the team is the same. The actions are the same and the only difference is the number of zeros after the comma. If it’s six zeros, or nine zeros, or twelve zeros or what have you, that’s the only difference. But the fundamentals of property management: tending to tenant needs; having an attorney draft up a solid lease agreement that promotes tenant flexibility throughout a term of the lease; working with a local banker, or if you’re a more sophisticated operator, working with friends and family and or other sources of equity and debt to achieve the financial results.

 

Having a good team around you: a property management team and contractors that you trust, that you know do quality work, that don’t cut corners and that you understand the costs up front, so that way you’re not looking at a job after the fact and racked up an extra ten thousand dollars in costs or what have you.

 

Working with an insurance advisor to help you understand the multitude of risks that you face on a daily basis. Some of which can be mitigated through daily best practices in your operations. Others tend to be much larger that you want to have financed by an insurance company.

 

And so, whether you’re starting on two properties or two hundred properties, you hear a lot of stories about people getting into it just all of a sudden acquiring 100 hundred over the course of a year, or stories like that, which I think is great. But the number doesn’t really matter, it’s the quality of the investment that matters, and it’s the quality of the team that you have around you. It’s the quality of your experiences that if you have those, that allows you to scale quicker and better. And you get through that learning curve quicker with a better team.

 

If you don’t have a good team around you, you’re going to be struggling with your experiences, wondering why you’re experiencing what you’re experiencing, without a good team.

 

And so, to your point: it’s a team sport, whether you’re just starting out with a trusted banker, like I said before, or trusted attorneys and contractors, or taking those resources and creating an in-house department encompassing all those various needs as a real estate investor. So, in my opinion, the difference is, as I’ve said it in the beginning, the number of zeros.

 

John Carney: And to get to the larger number of zeros, everyone starts somewhere. And the nice thing about this industry that I like, or the business of investing, is that it’s unlimited based on everybody’s personal motivation. Give us a brief summary of the importance of understanding your own risk profile, and then why having the right insurance agent who understands that risk profile is critical. I’ve had experiences where, early on in my investing career, insurance was a business expense, but it’s one that you always look to minimize, right. It’s very important but people always try to minimize that because it’s a business expense, it affects the bottom line. So, give us a little bit of professional advice on the best approach to insuring your real estate portfolio.

 

John Mark.: Yes, I’m certainly happy to do that. Let’s just be honest, insurance is not the most exciting topic to talk about, right? You don’t sit around the cocktail parties talking about your insurance agent or insurance policy. I totally understand that. But you’ve hit it right on, insurance is a line item in your operating budget, right? Just like legal is, and just like your interest rates are on your loans. You can argue the same thing from a lender perspective or your accountant or your attorney. But from the insurance side of things, I think the number one thing for an owner to do is to take the topic seriously, first off, and then secondly, shortly after that, is to really take the time to stop for a moment and think that these risks out there, that they could happen to you.

A lot of people sit back and say, “that’s never going to happen to me, that won’t happen to me.” I think a really true statistical investor will actually take the time to help you understand how that might happen to him or her and what they could do to mitigate that from even happening in the beginning. So, I think the best way to do that is to team up with an advisor who knows real estate.

 

When I started looking at houses in Rockford, Illinois, the first thing I asked my mortgage broker, or banker, as well as real estate agent is, “Have you worked in real estate before?” And the only key members that I chose to work with in those areas are people that have invested in real estate before. Whether they owned real estate at the time was irrelevant, but the fact that they actually took the time and invested their time and their money into real estate told me that I’m dealing with somebody who absolutely understands each step of the process. And so that should be the same thing with your insurance advisor.

 

Whether your insurance advisor invests as a private or silent investor in deals, or has a small portfolio on their own, I think you need to take time to interview them and understand their experience in real estate, because you’ll come across a lot of insurance agents that are generalists. They’ll walk into a manufacturing company and act like they know manufacturing, and they’ll turn around and walk into a non-profit and act like they know the intricacies of a health and human services organization, and then private equity, and so on. You just want to make sure that, while it’s understandable to have a diverse book of business, you want to make sure you’re working with someone who has the majority of their book in real estate. That way they can bring to you the information that is meaningful for you, and making you aware of things that you may not even be thinking of in the first place. Because you don’t know, and that’s the job of advisors, to inform people of what they don’t know, to better educate them on how to manage those risks going forward.

 

So I think, as an investor, capital is very intensive, a capital-intensive business. You’re constantly leveraging your dollars, so the financial risks that you take, and risks that might come about with your lenders, investors, financial loss to the organization, then you have your physical loss from the properties, with acts of god that just – wind and fire and hail and so on.

 

And then you have the operations risk of property management and tenant risk and understanding how the tenants are taking care of the property. And that boils down to your lease that you have with the tenant and ensuring that they’re carrying their own insurance that will indemnify you and protect you based upon their negligence. So, there’s a number of risks that an owner has, and has to manage on a daily basis.

And the insurance advisor just becomes much more valuable than just a broker. Somebody who’s going out into the insurance marketplace. You know, you fill out an application, you get a bunch of quotes, that’s not statistics. That’s not complex. It doesn’t really show any expertise, it just shows that you can go through a process. But then turning that information into business conversation, specific to real estate investing – that’s the piece where I think there’s true value of an insurance advisor.

 

So I would just encourage all the owners out there to work with an insurance advisor that is in the real estate investment business, and take it as seriously as you would your accountant. Because the last thing that you want to happen is a 50, 75, 100 thousand, one million dollar claim situation that is totally unforeseen, that kind of hits you out of nowhere. And you go to your insurance agent, they haven’t talked to you in two years, and you say, “Hey I got a claim.” And they say, “Hey, it’s not covered.” Then you have a bigger problem than you would have originally. So, that’s just my perspective when it comes to insurance and it doesn’t have to be time consuming, you don’t have to spend hours and hours and hours on it. You have to find the right person who can understand and be that advisor.

 

John Carney: John Mark, that’s great. That’s a great summary of why investors need to put some time and effort into sourcing the right insurance provider and advisor for their team. Important stuff. Alright, before we wrap this up, I’ve got a couple more questions for you, we’re kind of getting down to our two-minute drill here at the end. You’re a motivated, hard-charging person, and you manage to get a lot done with the same 24 hours we all have. Are you a big reader? Are there any books on business, or books on sports that you’ve read that you’d refer people to?

 

John Mark.: Yes, I think a couple of books come to mind that I have read in the past. I mean, I think we all know the book ‘Rich Dad Poor Dad’ is a popular book that people mention. But there’s a couple other books.

 

‘The Millionaire Next Door’ is a great book, it just talks about daily application of financial discipline and the notion of cutting up your credit cards; that’s kind of an extreme example, but it’s applying due discipline to your financial situation and ‘The Millionaire Next Door’ is a great example of that.
Another great book that I really like, that really resonated with me (I kind of view myself as an underdog in a way) is a book called ‘Talent is Overrated’, I think Jeffrey Colban is the author. He mentions Tiger Woods in his book. About how, in order to be the best at your game, it takes time in that arena. So, in Tiger Woods’ situation, really quick, he racked up more hours by the time he was ten years old than most golfers racked up by the time they were 23 or 24. And that allowed him to be that much more dominant in the field, because at the age of ten or twelve, he was light years ahead of everybody else. In part because of his dad and then just his personal drive. So there’s a lot of ways to make up for talent and the book called ‘Talent is Overrated’ is I think just a great read.

 

John Carney: Thanks for sharing those, I haven’t read either one of those. I’m an avid reader, and I’m compiling a list, especially through talking to all the guests that I’m very fortunate to interview on this show. So, that will be included on the show notes of my website.

 

John Mark.: Nice.

 

John Carney: Is there anything that you do: a daily habit or a practice that allows you to train to be successful in your business and in your life, that you can share with our audience?

 

John Mark.: Yes, a couple of things. I have to be able to work out at some point during the week, or on a somewhat consistent basis. I think with the pressures of business, and the high-pressure sales environment that I work in, you want to have broad shoulders and you have big goals ahead of you that the company depends on you for. And so you’ve got to be able to de-stress, think through the day, process the day and just get it all out, so that way when you start the day the next morning, you’re kind of starting it somewhat from a fresh perspective.

 

And then I’m actually an introvert. So the way I recover and reenergize is by actually being by myself and just taking a few minutes to sit and process my day. I’m a scotch guy and a bourbon guy, so I’ll have a glass of that and maybe write in a journal of some kind and just reflect. The other tip is just to duplicate my successes, but more importantly, learn from my failures going forward.

 

John Carney: Thank you for sharing that. That’s good, sound advice for everybody who’s working on journaling, or a little bit of quiet time to meditate or reflect on the day. Well thank you for joining me in the Locker Room today John Mark. Where can the audience find you to carry on the conversation? Tell us a little bit of where you live online.

 

John Mark.: Actually I’m not a big Facebook person, although if you go on my profile there’s some pictures that I posted of me and my girlfriend recently. But I don’t spend time commenting on other people’s posts or looking at the feed there. I am active on LinkedIn and my full name is John Mark Tichar. So you can look me up on LinkedIn. You can also shoot me an email at john.mark.tichar@gmail.com. I would be happy to connect with folks and network if anybody is interested.

 

John Carney: Alright, there you have it folks. I truly hope that you picked up some actionable advice regarding insurance for real estate from John Mark Tichar. Make sure to check out the Real Estate Locker Room Show on iTunes, Stitcher or Google Play and hit that subscribe button to ensure that you never miss out on all the pro-tips from our guests.

The mission here is to help you elevate your real estate game. And if you like what this show is all about, I’d be really grateful if you would leave us a five-star review on iTunes or your preferred podcast platform, wherever you get your podcast every week, so that other like-minded real estate investors just like yourself will be able to find us easily. The post-game report show-notes, links and additional content related to today’s episode will be available on my website: johncarneyonline.com/podcast, and while you’re there, feel free to drop your email into the newsletter signup form so that you can receive the monthly newsletter and other tips, tricks, hacks and good stuff related to the business of real estate. Remember to stay focused on your goals, have fun and stay in the game. I’m your host John Carney and until next week, work hard, play hard and profit hard. Thanks again for joining us again John Mark.

 

John Mark.: John Carney it was a pleasure thanks for having me.

 

John Carney: Perfect take care, thank you.

(Music Out)

End Audio

[31.54]

 

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