Posts tagged "money"

JC 008: How to maximize cash flow with Tyler Sheff

April 26th, 2017 | no comments

Want More Mailbox Money?

Real Estate is a Team SportMeet Tyler Sheff who is the founder of, a licensed real estate agent, problem solver, educator, inventor and syndicator.

Want more mailbox money? Stop paying retail for your investment properties and boost your cash flow. Tyler shares his strategies for deal structure and offers advice on how to adjust your mindset in order to scale your business.

The mission of The Cash Flow Guys is to create successful real estate investors. Tyler teaches investor how to do the math associated with vetting a deal and how to interoperate the results.

Tyler’s the host of the Cash Flow Guys Podcast and a Master Facilitator of Robert Kiyosaki’s Cash Flow 101 Game.

5 Key Points:

  1. Put people on your team who own rental property
  2. You need an education to invest in real estate
  3. Lean how to receive mail box money
  4. Learn how to do the math
  5. There are different ways to structure a deal


Favorite book, Equity Happens by Robert Helms and Russell Gray

Favorite quote, “you can be fired from your job but you can’t be fired from you investments”

The Power Hour – Tyler’s parting advice for ongoing success is to tune out and think for an hour every day.

Reach out to Tyler by visiting his website,

Facebook –

Twitter –

Listen to all the episodes of The Real Estate Locker Room Show and sign up for my FREE monthly newsletter at

POST GAME REPORT: Episode Transcript

PODCAST:                        008 – How to Maximize Cash Flow with Tyler Sheff

Introduction:            Welcome to the Real Estate Locker Room Show with John Carney. Did you know that investing in real estate is a team sport? Join John and his guests as they explore the intersection of the business of real estate and athletic competition. The goal for this show is to grant you direct access to the real estate pros that are closing profitable deals and growing their businesses. On the Real Estate Locker Room Show we are getting in the ring with successful investors, developers, operators, and all of the industry professionals to learn what it takes to achieve ongoing success. Now it’s time to kick off and level up with new ways to grow your real estate business.


John Carney:            Welcome back to the Real Estate Locker Room Show. I’m your host, John Carney coming at you today from Cleveland, Ohio. We’ve got another great guest on the line from the Tampa area down in Florida, and that’s Mr. Tyler Sheff, and we are going to talk about the importance of cash flow. Tyler is the founder the and a licensed real estate problem solver, educator, investor, and syndicator. Tyler has been involved in the real estate game for over sixteen years and now maintains a 100% laser focus on investing for cash flow and helping others do the same. As a master facilitator of Robert Kiyosaki’s Cashflow 101 game, Tyler hosts workshops to teach the busy people how to use what they have to obtain what they need in order to build passive income and escape the rat race. Welcome to the show, Tyler.


Tyler Sheff:            Thanks, John.


John Carney:            The Real Estate Locker Room is all about having the casual locker room conversation about real estate. I’m really interested in the intersection of sports and the business of real estate. To get kicked off, I like to stretch out a little bit with just a warm-up question about sports. Do you have a favorite athlete that you can share with our audience?


Tyler Sheff:            Oh let me think. A favorite athlete? Maybe Wayne Gretzky. There was a time that I watched hockey when I was a kid, and I was a big fan of Wayne Gretzky back at the time.


John Carney:            Fantastic. I had number 99 on my bedroom door in the Oilers jersey.


Tyler Sheff:            There you go.


John Carney:            Coming from up here in Cleveland, he was a guy we loved. So you’re all about cash flow (cash flow is king), but before we talk about some of those strategies that you love and implement, can you let me know how or why real estate ended up as your career path?


Tyler Sheff:            It’s interesting. I like to tell people this is my second act in real estate. My first act went good, don’t get me wrong. I got involved, I started flipping houses and of course I got my real estate license, it’s going back to the year 2000. And that was all fine and dandy. I learned how to make money, but I never learned necessarily how to. That’s why I went into real estate initially, to answer your question, for money. I wanted to make lots of money, but what I didn’t take the time to learn is how to keep the money. So it took unfortunately a second act for me to figure out how to actually keep the money and have the money working for me instead of me working for it. That was a big revelation.


John Carney:            So if you’re in sales, we’re talking about real estate sales, you’re finding a buyer or a seller and then you’re getting a commission check, and then you’re onto the next one.


Tyler Sheff:            Hopefully.


John Carney:            Hopefully. If you’re a good agent you’re on to the next one. You have multiple deals cooking. But what you’re saying is we’ve got to get that income producing more income through assets, correct?


Tyler Sheff:            I call it mailbox money. I love it when I open the mailbox the last couple days of the month and the first few days of the following month, and I’ve got all these checks rolling in. It’s just beautiful every time that happens. And here’s what’s cool, John. I also get this mailbox money from properties that I’ve never owned, and just serving as an agent. Because what I’ve figured out I learned from one of my mentors, is I can take my real estate commissions as a promissory note instead of taking it as a lump sum at closing. Now by doing that I found myself putting together a lot more deals because the realtor commission no longer became an issue. ,You would think that the buyer would be paying the real estate commission if it’s after closing, right? But what we found is that with rental property it wasn’t really the buyer that was paying the commission, it was the tenants because they’re paying to live there. So once you adjust your mindset a little bit, I was able to carry my commission back as a note, make a decent little bit of interest, and then receive monthly payments of my real estate commission over time so I could take that payday and I could stretch that payday out over three years, five years, ten years, whatever the buyer decides they want.


John Carney:            I’m unfamiliar with this strategy, but believe me I will become familiar with this strategy quickly. So you’re getting a principle plus interest type arrangement with the new buyer on the promissory note, right?


Tyler Sheff:            Correct. So let’s say for example I sell a house for you and my commission on that house would be $10,000. Now normally in most markets the seller pays the real estate commission. I run across a lot of buyers that are not skilled at negotiating, so what happens is they wind up buying what I call off-the-shelf or they wind up paying retail. Well that’s really not going to help them if they can’t structure deals that make sense based on their investor identity. So instead the service that I offer to buyers in my market and actually across the country because we have buyers from all over the place that buy in my market, is I go in and negotiate for them on their behalf. Yes believe it or not, there’s a real estate agent out there that can negotiate, there are a few of us. And in exchange for me negotiating, the buyer pays my fee. That way in negotiations the seller is not concerned with having to pay a ‘realtor commission’ because it’s not coming out of their proceeds. That allows us to focus on the true negotiation that which the seller, or the buyer, is really going to pay, and what the seller is really going to receive. And now when I do that, I can talk to the seller about what their walk-away money is. I don’t have to talk in hypotheticals, ‘Well if I give you $100,000 for this house, that really means you’re going to net $80,000.’ No if I say we’re going to give you $100,000 for the house, you’re going to net $100,000 and here’s how we’re going to do it.


John Carney:            So that is really removing the elephant from the room on both sides in getting down into the negotiations, deal structure, and all the other fun stuff, huh?


Tyler Sheff:            Absolutely. Absolutely, I find that most investors are just like realtors. They’re not skilled at negotiating and they don’t enjoy negotiating. So if you’re not skilled at something and you don’t like doing it, well do you really- what’s the chances of being successful while you’re doing it?


John Carney:            So for all the listeners out there, when we’re talking about sourcing a real estate agent and how important they are in most markets, and looking for that extra value, now you have another tool, another question you can ask, another way of thinking about generating a better cash flow right from day one. Not only that, by removing the commission you’re also lowering the tax basis of the property.


Tyler Sheff:            Yup.


John Carney:            I’m not an accountant but I believe that that’s how that works because I’ve asked- in the past I’ve asked for the commission to be separated and paid separately out of escrow so that- this was for a property I bought as a primary residence, and that was basically to lower my tax basis on the public record, which is legal in the state where I did that. So that is a strategy that I’ve not heard of, and I’m going to be looking into. Alright, well cool. When you’re out there working for yourself on your own cash flow investments, you have- you’re representing your partnerships, and your family interest. Talk to me about the team you have and how you went about finding those people.


Tyler Sheff:            My team is very diverse, and as is my business. I’ve got several different classes or different legs of the business and I was probably the last person to get on board with the team concept. I thought one of two things depending on what time in my life it was. It was either nobody could do it as good as I do, or I can’t afford to hire somebody because I thought to myself, ‘If I hire an employee, that’s going to cost me $40,000 a year.’ I didn’t sit there and think- my mindset was off, that’s a big problem. If your mindset’s not right then it’s going to keep you from doing things. When you hire somebody for $40,000 a year, you’re not writing them a check for $40,000 a year on the first day they show up to work. What you owe them is $769 for this week, and then if they’re good, next week there will be another $769. So I was stuck in this mindset and one of my mentors, Jay Massey, helped me get unstuck in that regard. It’s like you’re not paying them in advance. I mean they do a job, they do a good job, you keep paying them and they’re valuable. If they don’t do a good job, then you don’t have to pay them anymore. That’s kind of how it works. So that was a game changer for me.


John Carney:            Finding the mentors to help you get a business structure that would allow you to help more people and to scale up, right?


Tyler Sheff:            Absolutely.


John Carney:            So with the Cash Flow Guys, I love the name because cash flow is what real estate investment should be all about, and if it’s ticking along and well-structured in advance, and everything works out, that’s what you should be receiving, mailbox money. Talk to me a little bit about how your business helps people get in that right mindset and get that first deal, or that third deal, or that obstacle deal in the portfolio.


Tyler Sheff:            Robert Helms from the Real Estate Guys Podcast, Real Estate Guys Radio, he said do the math and the math will tell you what to do. And I heard that a few years back at one of his seminars, and it really rung true. Like Cash Flow Guys is about educating people on the right way to do the math on the real estate investments, to do the due diligence, to do their homework, to understand what they’re investing in because our mission is to create successful real estate investors. People say, “What do you do?” I say, “I make billionaires,” and essentially that’s what we do. I teach people the steps that they need with no gimmicks, no hype, no extra up-sell to be successful as a real estate investor. And that’s the real crux of the service that we bring to the community. We’re not in it to sell courses, we’re in it to sell real estate. So there’s a big difference there and if I sell somebody one property and they get nuked, do you really think they’re going to buy another property from my team?


John Carney:            Succession follows success, and you would want your clients to be successful, that is just Business 101, right?


Tyler Sheff:            Absolutely right.


John Carney:            But not everybody subscribes to that, but that sounds great and I mean right out of the bat whether you’re a client of the Cash Flow Guys or not, if Tyler or one of his agents is working on a deal with you, it sounds like he’s got a system right out of the gate that helps you maximize your cash on cash return.


Tyler Sheff:            Absolutely right. For us, John, it’s not a rush, we’re not in a race. And a lot of investors, they go to some weekend seminar, and that’s great because everybody needs education. I’m not anti-education, I’m actually very pro-education. But they come out and they’re ill-prepared to make buying decisions. What we do, what separates us- and then they get with some regular real estate agent who’s just dying to make a commission. And it really to some degree, you really can’t blame them because they’ve got to eat, right?


John Carney:            Absolutely.


Tyler Sheff:            And so you’ve got a person that’s overly anxious to get into a property, and then you’ve got somebody who’s overly anxious to sell one because they don’t have a passive income themselves; that creates a potentially volatile and riddled with failure type situation, where I don’t need to sell real estate to make a living because I can do nothing. I can spend my days on my kayak, I am retired at 46, I don’t have to work. So I’m able to take the time to get my clients on board with the right mindset, the right skills and tools to allow them to be successful, because I’m not in this for the money. Money’s nice, yes, but it’s a byproduct of the service that we provide.


John Carney:            Correct, you are an entrepreneur at heart solving problems, and the income is just the natural byproduct of having happy clients is what it sounds like to me, Tyler. But along with being an entrepreneur, like real estate investing to me is bare bones entrepreneurship, whether people want to call it investing or being an entrepreneur, I look at them to be somewhat interchangeable because if you want to have multiple properties and scale up so that you can be fishing when you want to be fishing, when the fish are in town so to speak, and running at the right spot, you have to get started and then you have to have sound strategies, cash flow strategies, and it takes the average entrepreneur or small business ten years to be successful. What have you seen? What timelines have you seen, kind of an average from the people you’ve been able to help who said, “I understand real estate, I just don’t have the confidence to do it all by myself. Give me a hand.” How many years are you seeing before people are really able to sit back and say, “You know what? I can double this now.”


Tyler Sheff:            You know it depends on the person. We meet lots of different people, and the big part of what we do with coaching is we take the time to interview people and really get to know them and try to get to the bottom line of what they’re trying to accomplish. You’ve got the engineer types that have to know every single bit of information because that’s how they process thought, that’s how they think. Engineers are going to have a more difficult time, in other words their success gap is going to be much larger, it’s going to take them longer to accomplish the same thing as somebody who is a little less conservative so to speak, who is not as analytical to get to where they need to be. The engineer is a very risk averse type person, so it’s just going to take them a heck of a lot longer than it would the average person per say. Now I am very concerned about risk, and I’m cautious when I do things, I’m far more conservative than my wife is. And she’s not careless by any means, I’m just more conservative than she is, and we were able to get our first couple dozen doors within our first year of getting out there and doing it. Now with that process, as far as a timeline, I was in a big rush. I thought there was a badge of honor by the number of units that I had under my belt. I took a financial bath to some degree, or at least a dip in the pond that gave me an invaluable education, so we’ll call that tuition.


John Carney:            Okay, I mean that is a great analogy because that’s maybe skipping a valuable step.


Tyler Sheff:            Yeah.


John Carney:            But you didn’t make the same mistake twice, right?


Tyler Sheff:            Well actually I’ve got to say, I actually have made the same mistake more than once. I’m not going to lie, I couldn’t say otherwise. But the best thing I try to tell people whether they listen to my podcast or at any one of our events is that take the time to understand what we’re doing. In America we go out and buy stocks and mutual funds, we don’t understand what we’re investing in, we trust somebody else, a complete stranger on Wall Street to bargain with our retirement fund. It’s kind of illogical if you think about it. I used to play the stock market and now I look at the two, it’s like real estate is not rocket science. You don’t have to have a PhD to invest in real estate. Although I do have a PhD technically, I’ve got a Public Highschool Diploma, PhD, but it’s not hard, it’s not difficult to invest in real estate, but it does take some education and whatnot. And the faster you’re willing to take action, I think the faster you’ll see it.


John Carney:            I agree. A big proponent of taking action because results only follow action as opposed to planning I suppose. You’ve got to have that action step in there. Well great, so I mean we are talking about cash flow, and you’ve brought up some great points and some great tips for helping investors get started with cash flow. So before we get into our two minute drill and conclude this, what is your number one piece of advice for a rookie real estate investor who is after the cash flow? I might be repeating myself but know the numbers, is there something other than the math that you find to be a critical piece of the puzzle?


Tyler Sheff:            Put people on your team that own rental properties. Whether that be an attorney, especially a tax professional, a real estate agent. Insist that your team members in those roles own rental property because if they own rental property, they should be able to teach you how to maximize your efficiency in that regard.


John Carney:            There you go. We could end on that note because that is great advice, but we won’t. We’re going to now tie the sports aspect into this show. So are you ready for the two minute drill?


Tyler Sheff:            I’m ready, bring it.


John Carney:            Perfect. When you were growing up did you love playing sports or did you participate in any sports that made you realize ‘Wow I learned a few lessons there and I’m applying that to my business’?


Tyler Sheff:            I played a lot of sports, and I’ve got to be honest with you, I was terrible in most of them. But I did enjoy baseball and I learned quickly that I enjoy being part of a team. I absolutely enjoy being part of a team.


John Carney:            Okay, that’s great. I think that I learned the same thing. And are you still playing softball, or playing any team sports today, or is it fishing and-?


Tyler Sheff:            Well I got a little older John, and then I got a little fatter, and things don’t work the way they used to, and I’ve fallen down and gone boom a few times, and now I unfortunately don’t play sports anymore. I am an avid kayaker and fisherman and whatnot. I do some diving and that type of thing, and spear fishing. I’m an outdoorsman, a sportsman.


John Carney:            Don’t discount that though, like I think the outdoor solo athlete is just as much of a sportsman as the team guy playing the branded sports.


Tyler Sheff:            I agree.


John Carney:            And I’ve been fortunate enough to reel in a big game fish, and it wasn’t easy.


Tyler Sheff:            That’s for sure.


John Carney:            The fish made it easy for me being a rookie, he just swam right up and we pulled him in, but it’s supposed to be harder than that and the people on the boat were blown away. But it’s a tough sport.


Tyler Sheff:            Well hey, get a swordfish on the line and then tell me if that’s easy.


John Carney:            I doubt it, it was by no means a swordfish and that doesn’t look easy, not at all. Have you caught a few of those?


Tyler Sheff:            I have actually, I caught a few out in the Gulf of Mexico, and let me tell you that was an experience.


John Carney:            That is, that’s pretty cool. I’d love to see the photo.


Tyler Sheff:            Yeah I’ve got them somewhere around here, I’ve got to dig them out.


John Carney:            Look I know that a lot of our guests and a lot of our audience are avid readers, or their avid podcast listeners. Is there a favorite book that you have whether it’s related to sports or to business or to just something that supports being better at business that you can recommend?


Tyler Sheff:            I’ve got to say, the best book- and I’ll say this before I even give the title, and it’s about- they’re hopefully supposed to be releasing an updated edition. Not that the old edition is necessarily outdated, but these two guys put out so much value when they put out a piece of product that they’re just going to add more value to it. It’s called ‘Equity Happens,’ and it’s been written by The Real Estate Guys which are Robert Helms and Russell Gray. You cannot- it’s no longer in print but it’s still available from time to time on Amazon and I see the price fluctuating between $20 and $150. I love that book, I learned so much from that thing. It’s a big thick read, but I absolutely love it.


John Carney:            ‘Equity Happens,’ that’s good. We’ll get that up on the show notes for sure. Alright, is there a quote that keeps you motivated when things aren’t going your way? When the chips aren’t falling your way?


Tyler Sheff:            That keeps me motivated? Yeah what keeps me motivated, and sometimes I tend to be a little over-conservative, and it’s actually a quote that I use quite often and people have- I feel people now using it, so I guess I originated this. You can be fired from your job but you cannot be fired from your investments. So I’m having a down day, and I’m thinking, ‘Ah jeez.’ At the end of the day I think to myself- listen I have a stream of income that will remain uninterrupted for a lifetime the way I’ve structured it. So whatever’s bothering me, whatever’s bumming me out, I don’t really have anything to complain about because there’s always someone else that’s worse off than me, and at the end of the day my stream of income is never going to stop. So really I just need to put on my big boy pants, and buck up, and get back to work because I’ll be okay.


John Carney:            The gratefulness practice. It could always be worse.


Tyler Sheff:            That’s right.


John Carney:            Cool. Do you mind sharing one come from behind victory in real estate that you’ve had in the last ten years?


Tyler Sheff:            I had some properties under contract when I was first starting out in real estate. I had 22 houses under contract as a lister, or one investor. And apparently there was a riot in the neighborhood where all these houses were located, it was not in a friendly neighborhood. So long story short is on that Friday night, every one of those houses was burned to the ground. There was nothing but literally charred remains. But it turns out that after it was all said and done, the seller kind of thought about trying to figure everything out, and we wound up selling the lots for much more than we wound up getting for- that we had the houses listed for because the houses were in pretty bad condition. So it turned out that the riot actually helped the situation, it made it better because it just cleared all that rubble out of the way and he didn’t have to pay $10,000 a house to have them torn down.


John Carney:            That’s a good story. You have to be in it to win it, don’t you?


Tyler Sheff:            Amen.


John Carney:            Cool. Before I let you go, is there anything you do on a daily basis to train for success or to get into a flow state?


Tyler Sheff:            I have my power hour in the morning. I tune out. No Facebook, no email, no cell phone, no nothing. I sit back, I do absolutely nothing. I don’t read, I just sit back and think, and I do that for an hour every morning before anything else happens in the morning, even before my coffee happens in the morning, I just sit back for an hour and I guess some would call it meditating but I just call it thinking. I just sit back and think.


John Carney:            That is a great success tip, and it gets you into the flow state, and then you’re ready to tackle the day, right?


Tyler Sheff:            Amen.


John Carney:            Perfect. Well thank you for joining me in the Locker Room today, Tyler. Where can the audience find you to carry on the conversation if they have any questions or want to get ahold of you through the Cash Flow Guys?


Tyler Sheff:            I’m kind of everywhere but I guess the best way to reach out to me is through my website, go to Of course you’ve got my podcast and all of our content information, my contact information is right on there. So feel free to reach out if you have questions or if there’s anything I can do to help you.


John Carney:            Perfect and we’ll have all of that on iTunes and on my website in the show notes. Alright, there you have it folks. Cash flow, cash flow is king. I truly hope that you picked up some actionable advice today from Mr. Tyler Sheff, and we thank him for taking the time to share those gems with us. Make sure to check out the Post Game Report on iTunes. Again we’ll have links to all the great places you can connect and interact with Tyler there. And while you’re there please subscribe to the Real Estate Locker Room Show to ensure that you don’t miss another episode, but also to help other likeminded real estate investors find us when they’re looking for real estate related content. If you like what we’re about, I’d be grateful if you’d tell a couple of your friends so that they can also share in the learning. If you visit you will see the additional content and links, and while you’re there you can sign up for our newsletter and keep in touch with me for other real estate investing insights, and tricks, and hacks, and other great stuff. So remember to stay focused on your goals, have fun, and stay in the game. I’m your host, John Carney, and until next week work hard, play hard, and profit hard. Thank you Mr. Tyler Sheff.

[End of Audio [00:28:12]

Connect with John Carney
Twitter: @John_M_Carney
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© John Carney 2017

JC 005: How to reposition the Sleeping Giant with Nat Mundy

April 5th, 2017 | no comments

Learn how a Rolling Stones concert in London changed Nat Mundy’s life.

The Real Estate Locker Room ShowNat is an international entrepreneur who capitalized on his childhood passion for go-carts. Nat’s business plan received a D in business school but he was undeterred in pursuit of his goal.

Nat leveraged the skills that he learned on Wall Street to build an entertainment brand that started out by repositioning the “Sleeping Giant” – a massive industrial campus that was the perfect fit for his unique vision.

Nat credits his success to leaning strong work ethic from his father and having the right team of people onboard that believed in his vision.

Favorite athlete – Wayne Gretzky, “The Great one” – NHL Hockey player

Nat recommends reading all of Richard Branson’s books.

Must read – Losing My Virginity – How I survived, Had Fun and Made Fortune Doing It

Key Points:

  • Nat draws his inspiration from courage and loyalty
  • Lead by example, be willing to mob the bathroom floor
  • Make sure everybody is healthy and happy

 Thanks again Nat for taking the time to share your story with us.

You can connect with Nat online at Grand Prix New York, or


POST GAME REPORT: Episode Transcript

The Real Estate Locker Room Show Podcast

JC 005: How to reposition the Sleeping Giant with Nat Mundy

Announcer: Welcome to the, “Real Estate Locker Room Show” with John Carney. Did you know investing in real estate is a team sport? Join John and his team as they explore the business of real estate and athletic competition. The goal for this show is to grant you direct access to the real estate pros that are closing profitable deals and growing their businesses. On the “Real Estate Locker Room Show” we are getting in the ring with successful investors, developers, operators, and all of the industry professionals to learn what it takes to achieve on-going success. Now it’s time to kick-off and level up with new place to grow your real estate business.


John Carney: Hello and welcome back to the Real Estate Locker Room Show.

I’m your host, John Carney, coming at you from Cleveland Ohio. Joining me in the

Locker Room, on the line from West Chester County New York, is Nat Mundy. Nat is a

36-year-old entrepreneur and graduate of Hobart College, after a brief stint on Wall Street he decided to pivot and pursue his thesis project which is Grand Prix New York that he subsequently received a “D” on in school. But that was not a deterrent for Nat. He hit the ground running, raised the money and started build out in December 2006 and opened the doors to Grand Prix New York in February 2007. Nat grew the business by adding “Spin Bowl” in 2010 and an arcade in 2011. To grow he and his partners began acquiring bowling alleys and launched the multi-store brand “Spin Bowls” in 2015. How ya doing today Nat? We’re really interested in hearing how this entrepreneurial business turned into a real estate business so welcome to the show.

Nat Mundy: Yeah, thank you very much for having me, I appreciate it.

John Carney: No worries buddy. We’d like to start out with a little bit of

a sports related question here to kinda get the show kicked off and get the creative juices flowing. In all of the professional sports, who is your favorite athlete of all time?

Nat Mundy: I think my favorite athlete of all time, I’m going to go with The Great One, Wayne Gretzky.

John Carney: Nice, nice. Where you a hockey player growing up?

Nat Mundy : Hockey player growing up. Hockey fan my whole life. And just a guy that made a career and became untouchable. And to the point where rookies wouldn’t even touch him. And from what I can tell, decent family guy, attractive daughter, even more attractive family. And never got into any trouble, or did anything stupid, in elevators or night clubs. Ya, can’t hate him.

John Carney: No, not at all. He was a little guy. So, I mean, he had to adapt.

Nat Mundy: Right exactly. Wasn’t there when the 6ft 5in. mile 41 Saskatchewan players. So, when those guys came on the scene, he’d already been in the ice for 15 years, or something. So, he stayed and he ended up becoming “The Great One.” So why not?

John Carney: #99 folks. I had a poster of “The Great One” in his original Oilers uniform on my door when I was a kid growing up.

Nat Mundy: Awesome, great! That’s so good.

John Carney: Well,Nat you have an interesting story I’d like to jump into because you’re an entrepreneur, started a business, you started a business after a professor said it was no good, right? It was a rubbish idea and you had a little bit of a pivot, started a business and that business also became a real estate business. So, could you tell us the story. How did you get started?

Nat Mundy: Yeah. So basically I was at a “Rolling Stones” concert in Wembley Stadium, in the U.K. when I was I’d say, 18, 19 years old. And I went to an indoor go-kart track in London. And there was this very cool Honda powered go-karts, Italian chassis. And they were running in an old abandoned warehouse. I didn’t even look like a warehouse, which was like a Brooklyn New York warehouse. I though that we would have to have this in the states. I’m stupid, I’m sitting there, I’m watching corporate events do their thing there. In stead of playing golf or going to a big dinner, they were going go-karting, you know, why not? So, when I got back to the states, I had realized they had opened one in Boston, called, “F1 Boston.” I reached out to R.J. Valentine, who is a real estate insurance guy, who’s based out of Boston, owns F1 in Boston, and F1 Outdoor which are the two, first indoor-outdoor tracks that were served European inspired circuits in America. He wanted nothing to do with me so I said, “Fine.” I wrote this business plan based on the remaining places, reviewing DMV lists, looking for places where cost of rent would be low or obviously at the time couldn’t even think about buying a building to put on 125,000 sqft business into and that was the plan. And I consequently got a “D-” on it. And he told me that, I guess it wasn’t in line with the assignment as to thinking what he wanted. He wanted to talk more about franchises and he was focused more on. I still see it as a franchise and like I said, with multiple stores in the state thing it’s proven we can build something that’s high-end entertainment based, in multiple locations. But he gave me a “D” on it anyway. I was going to school for architecture and ended up getting a job on Wall Street. At the time they were hiring engineers and architects in the sales trading world. We were spreadsheet guys. Still got that whole thing but put models together. Got dragged into there for about 2 ½ – 3 years. I was doing private placement, straddling the wall to a degree. Everything from Shiriah funds to private placements, by backs of private companies, and just really didn’t like it to tell the truth. But the money was great. It was a fun career, fast paced, challenging, very transactional, I don’t think I was bad at it. I just don’t feel like I was going to love it. My father had been at Citibank for 35 years and went through a heart attack at age 60. And the bank retired him virtually 8 months, 9 months later. I then left the firm I was at. I just wanted to do my own thing and take the risk while I still could. So, I did one more private placement. We raised $6.8 million dollars on our first round, broke escrow signed a lease with Diamond Properties in 2006, September. Started construction, going for town approvals and this is a town that had a sleeping giant 36-acre campus that was the grand union distribution center, based in Westchester County. They were off of a railroad spur that was a slaughterhouse and banana ripening and avocado ripening, you name it. This 600,000 sqft. building on 36 acres, in Mt. Kisco. And we were the first tenant to move in. And Diamond went with us to town to go ahead and get it changed to multi-tenant zoning. And about a year later we opened to the public. And since then, the center has grown, our neighbors on this building are a high-end athletic club with a pool, as well as MMA Center, a training and trampoline park and numerous other, you know, tenants. So, it’s gone from a single tenant use building, to a

multi-use. We have really changed the overall campus provided a bunch of jobs to the area, etc…

In 2008, obviously, a rough year to start any business, especially a pipe dream and we saw some hardship. And with that the landlord Diamond Properties, Jim Diamond came on as a partner in the business. We then pushed to open Spin Bowl, which took part of our track space, for indoor go-kart track and built 18 bowling lanes. And bowling was a great feature, it actually made our restaurant food and beverage business profit. As opposed to lose money. So having this restaurant in a go-kart track indoors didn’t prove itself to be a place if you wanted to come and linger longer and drink beers but with bowling it gave us that sort of product. And then we extended it to all ages, which brought in a 3-track set-up, as opposed to a 2-track set-up when we first opened. So, ages 8 and up, or 40 inches with proper mental faculties could drive a go-kart and then we put the arcade in. So it ended up being this 7 day a week, Monday through Thursday corporate event venue. Friday, Saturday, social event venue and family fun, on Friday afternoon through Sunday night. And so far, so good. In 2015 the Diamonds, our partner bought the real estate that included 3 more bowling centers, one in Carmel New York, one in Poughkeepsie New York, and one in Wappingers Falls New York. And they have censured them as “Spin Centers” in those depending upon the site have assets accessories such as: Laser tag, arcade, and our marina properties will end up having outdoor climbing, indoor climbing, ropes courses, as well as shuffle board, and even a Captain Lawrence Brewery. So, it’s really you know, sort of expanded on it. Again, the only way to make a distinct business successful was to spread the call centers, establish a sales department, and the accounting department and all those things across a number of properties and come up with a hospitality brand as opposed to a stand-alone business. So, it’s one of those kinds of go big or go home situations. And the Diamonds were able to fund a lot of these projects on their own. So Grand Prix, the only one that has a bunch of partners in it because it was a private placement. But, the ones moving forward have just basically been themselves and have been for their real estate portfolio. They are a large company with half a billion-dollars worth of real estate that ranges from warehouses, to offices, to medical. So, they are pretty well diversified as well.

John Carney: Yeah, so that is a great entrepreneurial story. I mean, all of the good ones finally get to a point, a line in the sand where they say, go big or go home. And that’s how it generally works. It sounds like an incredible success that’s just going to be gaining momentum. You know, when you say, “Found a sleeping giant.” You basically re-position a dirty, old, I’m picturing a dirty old slaughter house, off the side of some railroad tracks with a bunch of overgrown, you know literally over grown weeds and the terrible parking lot and you know, signs falling down, and all that stuff?

Nat: Correct and an old water tower. I mean it became economically viable as well because it brought taxes back. Karl owned the property back when he owned TWA and the Diamonds had bought it from whoever bought it from him. And there it just sort of sat. And this was a major repurpose, I mean, we’re talking about a hundred bay loading depot turned into call it 15 mixed-use style tenants. A lot of them entertainment, and club based and membership based. So we can go ahead and get special use permits to do it. I went ahead and took it over. The nice part too is it’s got about 180 parking spots. And has two entrances, two, to three entrances. It has a town park, play field, ball field end of it. We do give back to the community. We all employ at this location alone just surround 120 people depending on the time of year. That’s pretty significant for the area considering the only other large employers in the area are Target and the hospital.

John Carney: So, yeah, I mean, just going back, just taking a step back. Because I’ve got a hundred questions? Now, that we’re into it. I mean, it’s for the listeners out there who are in the industrial space, I mean, have some vision. It’s about looking at these opportunities that people who have a headache and don’t want these industrial properties. That you know, it is, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right.

Nat: Right.

John: But this is called the sleeping giant. But, you run across people that just say to themselves “Why did I buy this? Take it.” And you guys took it and turned it into something magical. So, that’s a great story.

Nat: Yeah, I looked around for two years for landlord that would let me ruin 3 acres of warehouse. And I couldn’t find one. I looked in Connecticut because I had demographics studies that were more promising and lower taxes per sqft. So, it was a better positioning. But I couldn’t find any in Connecticut people to do it. I saw this property in the New York Times and said let’s try it. And then when I approached them I was actually one of two people that had approached it for a go-kart track. And I had the private placement background and I had written to PPM already. And this gentleman, who I did this with was no longer a partner in it but I was part of it originally. He was still an equity shareholder of some sort but he’s no longer an operating partner. He had sort of the age appropriateness, he was 36 I was 25. So what landlord in there right mind was going to write 30 year, or 20 year lease with a 10 year option for a 120,000 sqft. And I was going to pave 65,000 sqft. of the interior space so you can never really reuse it for anything ever again in the warehouse world. So, it was a big leap for them. And the great part is they became essentially the managing partners of this business. And also the future ones for the expansion, so great timing. Especially because they were in the buying mode during this crisis we were all in. They were acquiring more space, and able to live through it and survive. There’s a lot of firms like that that did not based upon on their portfolios.


John Carney: Right, alright. Let’s go back and re-visit growing-up. Did you play team sports? Or what type of competitive athletic sports did you play?


Nat Mundy: Well, I grew-up hockey, football, lacrosse. Went to West Minster, I was never a varsity athlete when I went to boarding school. But just had a good time with it. And I really enjoyed it obviously. My closest friends were the ones I had on those teams, the boys that I lived with. And dorms basically age 15 on. And I’ve always been mechanical. I remember going to the dump and getting tube TV’s and old typewriters, and taking them apart and seeing how they worked. I’d say I was, probably 10, or so 11? My hockey coach Mr. Breckwald had gone to a Yankee game and won a Yankee go-kart with the Yankee F1 shell with stickers on it. And obviously he didn’t want a kid’s go-kart. So, I was one of the first people in the locker room that day and he said, you know, if you I want it, he just wanted the shell for his wall. So I could have the actual functioning go-kart portion. And he traded me two cases of Coors. And

Coors Banquet Long neck Bottles as payment. So, when I went out to the locker room and asked my dad after practice he went to Bedford Beverage, picked-up a cold case, a warm case and went to Mr. Brekwald’s house and parked outside a Peugeot station wagon and loaded up the go cart. And the nice part, he was on a cult-a-sac so I was wearing basically a hockey helmet and driving around his cult-a-sac with my go-kart. brand new go-kart while my dad finished probably half the case with Mr. Breckwald, while watching me do this. So everyone had a good time that afternoon. I rapidly modified the thing, had a great time with it. Every time I broke it, I made it better. And even went as far as crashing the go-kart into the back of my parents car while it was parked during brake failure. I broke my wrist and waited about 5 days to tell my parents I broke my wrist so they wouldn’t think it happened on the go-kart and take it away.

John Carney: There ya go, so like a hockey player you didn’t let that injury get in the way of a good time. So, the seed was really planted 8 years before the Rolling Stones concert, right?

Nat Mundy: Yeah, I’d say, that was my real eye-opener, that I could sort of obviously say I always loved watching racing things on TV. And we didn’t live in this part of the area, West Chester Town doesn’t have a go-kart track that kids are competing at. You know, it’s not near Lime Rock is the nearest track back then. And it wasn’t what was going on there either. And I think it got me the bug. And you know, the people like Paul Newman, for example, who he didn’t love acting as much as he loved racing. He spent time acting to pay for racing. And I wanted to find a way to basically break into this sport and enjoy it. But, had to turn it into a business to pay the mortgage, for me, that you could raise a family on. And you know, it took about 10 years for us to really, 8 years of the 10’s so far for us to really figure out how to position it and how to expand how to do it properly. We just opened the Carmel Spin’s Bowl location on Tuesday. And that’s 5 of the 9 that are completely up now and under the new Spins name tag.

John Carney: Congratulations for the new edition. So, it sounds like you’re scaling your business and the real estate, owning the real estate, I imagine is part of, is a segment of that overall operation, am I correct?

Nat Mundy: Yes, so the Diamonds will acquire the real estate and bowling alleys they essentially trade for what the building is worth. They don’t really trade for the business value or anything. These centers need some major rehab. So Jim and Bill will acquire a building that has a bowling alley in it and they will keep it as a bowling center.

And then our hospitality group. “Diamond Hospitality” comes in, post-renovation, some of our guys will be on the ground working on it. The ceiling tile this color, the paint this way, use the old lanes as bar tops, sub-tile here, you know, they really have a great D & A set-up. The centers all look similar because of that. Setting up a proper arcade with a redemption which is huge. The arcade is about 16-20% costs of goods sold, it’s amazing business. And go ahead and work with the new locations to figure out how to fill it 7 days a week. And for them, it’s about getting the four days after they’ve closed on a building, they’ve got a lease signed by their sister company that’s leasing out the space. And we set rent to where we know it can be an affordable thing for the center. And then go for it from there. And all it’s been so far is growth and knock on wood we’ll keep on going. We closed on a bowling center in Independence in Ohio. And then there’s one by Kent State also Ohio, that’s one. Hopefully, we’ll be wrapped up fairly soon, to open as a Spins Center location as well. So, we’re going as far as Ohio now, if you think about it.

John Carney: Wow, I mean, Independence, Kent State, that’s right around the corner from where I am.

Nat Mundy: Well, there ya go.

John Carney: You’re getting in the neighborhood. When you come out for a second inspection. We’ll have to have a…

Nat Mundy: Definitely.

John Carney: A cold beer.

Nat Mundy: I just met the gentleman manager for Independence via email yesterday. And that was our first contact. But, you know, it’s going to take a little bit of training. Get him up to speed. And at that point change their name tags and their shirts and then they become part of our team and we continue going.

John Carney: Right, and I mean, at the end of the day we are talking about real estate and business, they are both team sports. I like to say if you’re scaling up a real estate investment portfolio within any of the niches, that’s a team effort. Or you can be selling a doughnut, that’s a team effort with either one. When you are talking about your team, I mean, there’s obviously people in your team, that you could have, that have stuck with you a number of years now, over a decade. But is there one specifically, a specific advisor that you turn to for advice? Or when you were just starting out? Because this is about helping people start out and scale.

Nat Mundy: You know, I think a couple of great things. I grew up in an area where you know, a lot of people had sort of the last, my parent’s generation was the last of the generation that kept jobs for 35 years in the same place, right? And meanwhile, there was already some sort of movers and shakers in the area. I worked at a deli from the age of 12 and up folding newspapers and stocking shelves. And I actually drive my four-wheeler from my parent’s house to the deli. And that was back in the town, back in the day when no one cared. It wasn’t like it was rural America. This was West Chester County, its Bedford New York. But it was a lot less people then. I learned just sort of, I think from my father overall, you just had to have a work ethic and just go with it. And he was a lot more conservative in his approach to career and work. Whereas for me, this is sort of how I manage my ADHD. This is my self-medication. Where I focus my scatteredness onto a productive platform of opening a businesses and finding really great partners. You know, Jim Diamond, who founded Diamond Properties is a great guy as well. He typically can analyze what I’m showing him as long as it’s a spreadsheet or written down in a constructive manner and give some great points, very entrepreneurial as well. They didn’t start in real estate. They started in the technology world and then transitioned into real estate. So when their technology company, one of many sold and when the business sold, they were left standing with their real estate portfolio. They have partners like Princeton Realty, which was from an Albright family which was in the same office as us and that’s on the brokerage side. They are also partners in other building stuff. Again, they’ve also sort of filtered things into a real estate play. I mean we even have an auto storage, they have self-storage in a bunch of locations, currently three now, they got one out in Connecticut, one in Elmsford, and one in Mount Kisco. But at the Mount Kisco location we took the second floor of an old body shop that’s on this campus and turned it into an auto storage. And you know we’re talking about 6500 square feet of space that’s producing about $100,000 a year in revenue at very little cost. Just taxes and whatever debt service there is, There’s no employees for it. There’s just insurance for it and a very small utility bill. So, you know, that’s the kind of thing they are good about. And when I came to them with that idea they said, “Yeah, do it!” And we took about 3 years to fill it and now that it’s full, it’s full, and it’s an annuity. When they’ve had tenants in the past have any issues they’ve also been able to pull them in and use their, you know, so they have a HVAC company or an electrical supply company. You know, what landlord with you know 3 million square feet does not need one of those, you know, in their back pocket. So, they’ve been able to get through by being like wonderful over all landlords and expanding into other market segments because they own the real estate those market segments comes from. It’s a very dynamic group. I’d say, meeting them, sort of took my cowboy business person nature from Wall Street and really reformed it and shaped it into a more sustainable, entrepreneurial scenario where it’s just backed up by real estate. I mean, if cash is backed up by gold sitting in a box somewhere on this continent, if your business is at the end of the day backed up by a real estate play, I think that a you can have less issues going forward. Me, I’m a very small landlord. One of the hardest things, you know, I have to look at. Is that, if you go ahead and you look at the market, I watch my friend from the hedge fund world and we’ve all had separate jobs since college. I’ve had a friend who’s done everything from a FCC to Bridgewater Capital smaller funds and they have all bounced around and a lot of them spent a lot of money on grad school and business school and they necessarily didn’t need to, if they just sort of found the right partners early on, they sure could have avoided all of the skipping around. And it all goes back to real estate. I think in that we would never rent any space to then go ahead and put a go-kart track and a bowling alley into. The Diamond’s rule is they will buy and own this real estate and then we’ll create entertainment space within it. And that approach has worked for them over 9 centers by this time next year. They are already in the hopper purchased and then the goal will be closer to 20 in year 4 years from now.

John Carney: Yeah, I mean, I just love hearing stories like this. Like about the gritty start about the personalities that come together, about the team, I’m big on team, it’s about the team and the gels. I mean, I would say, the to the listeners out there if you have a fire in you, an entrepreneurial fire in you and you find people that you can partner with, that understand the vision and have the experience. I mean, that sounds like what you did Nat, what you did in the past. It’s a play it forward to, I mean, you get to a position where the young guns are going to come knocking on your door and you’ll get that opportunity. Well, that is truly a great story. You know, on the real estate side, re-positioning the industrial to fit this need and to scale up and move west, is cool. I’m looking forward to checking out your brand once it’s up and running here in Ohio. Let’s get into our “2-minute drill” here. Are there any sports you are still playing today?

Nat Mundy: Ah, yeah I still play pick-up hockey and I’m actually racing most every weekend, in one format or another, whether it be in a go-kart or a car. So, that’s sort of been my activity at this point. My boat has turned into a place to listen to music and drink beer.

John Carney: That’s good stuff. Are you a reader? Is there a favorite book related to an athlete or sports or business that you keep coming back to?

Nat: You know, it’s funny. I frequent, you know, you remember the movie “Cocktail” where Tom Cruise is the bartender? And there’s a success manual behind the bar?

John Carney: I do, I do.

Nat: So, my success manual has been reading and re-reading any of Richard Branson’s stuff.

John Carney: “Losing My Virginity” I would say, that book was an instrumental part in my decision to work for myself.

Nat Mundy: I mean, he’s had the ups and downs. But the specific thing about, he’s kinda stayed classy the entire time. You know where as we see a bunch of entrepreneurs that aren’t as good about their sort of public eye. You know, Richard Branson has worked the entire time for $4.9 billion and I believe every cent of it. You know, versus a lot of other billionaires out there that are supposedly self-made. Anyway, for him it was all about the hustle and I love reading how he changes with, one of his book, I forget which one, but some of the copyright laws and how some of those are changing and how he then figured out a way to make money still, you know, in that space in the music world. And then obviously on the phones, and airlines and you know the “Space X” project. I take it he’s just a very, an entrepreneurial hero. And the cool part is that he was able to do it in London as his kind of home base as opposed to I feel everyone else just runs to New York or L.A. to become an entrepreneur.

John Carney: Yeah, we like Richard. I mean I was living in Australia for 7 years, the Virgin brand is very present there. He’s in town promoting various, whether it’s the airlines, or something else you know, enough that he gets a lot of press outside of America. I agree he’s an entrepreneurial hero.

Is there a quote from someone that keeps you motivated in the morning? Because we all know that you’re running a real estate business or scaling up a franchise in go-karts that there’s too many obstacles that are going to knock you back and is there anything that you like, nope I’ve got to keep going?

Nat Mundy: I don’t think I have so much of an inspiration she won’t quote as much as just sort of. And I went to this summer camp and it was an all-boys camp for three years in the summer and they always talked about courage and loyalty. And that might sound a tad cliché and cheesy. But number one, you have to have the courage to step out and do something. I could have stayed at my firm and probably would have probably still been there today if I had never left Wall Street. Or I would have moved onto something else. I’d probably be a director of some level of this point. Sure, but I also have a lot less hair. I’d be a much bigger stress case I’d also be commuting via train. Have you ever see the zombies get on the train at [5:30] in the morning and come back at [7:30] in the morning. They give up a huge part of their life, their family life for that roll. And that’s why you’ll never hear me complain about a Wall Street executive getting paid millions in bonuses because they basically become, their family basically becomes the firm. Their priorities become their job over their families and they miss a lot. And then you know comes the loyalty. I think family comes first and if you can stay loyal to your family and friends, you have the best part of business for the rest of your life. I mean, money aside, really all businesses are doing is helping to create money. But, if it provides for your family the way you were brought up or better, I think that’s success. So my goal would be to be able to send my kids to good-schools and not have to struggle week to week to make ends meet. Have them with a good life style, to get good educations, and then enter into business one day or expand it for which one is better and newer. It’s not a phrase so much, two-traits; courage and loyalty. Step out, step in the way and keep the people that keep you going as close as possible. Make sure that everyone is healthy and happy.

John Carney: Yep, that’s good advice. And I just want to build on that a little bit. Is there a daily practice, how do you train for success, how do you personally train for success? Different people do it in different ways, they get into a flow state or they get into their own zone. Is there a ritual or habit that you have?

Nat Mundy: Yeah. I can’t live without a calendar in my phone. I mean, part of my learning disability are I need things to be very organized and everything has to be in writing. So I start my day by having to review the calendar the night before for the next day. So when I get up I know what time to set the alarm. So basically it starts at bed time and then when I get up in the morning I make coffee at home, I watch the news. I have an awareness of what’s going on in the world and clearly now a days there’s a myriad of news to watch. I feed my dog, take her outside and do a certain morning ritual of showering and get to work before anyone else. That way I don’t have to have any distractions and any loose ends that came up after I left work the day before I have completely tidied up for start of business officially for the rest of the office. And then because of that I can say to myself that when I leave for 4-5 days at a time because everything is tidied up and there’s overall communication. I have update email that I probably send out 3-4 times a day to keep the ball rolling. That could be anything from a last minute event being booked at one of our centers to a decision on furniture. But it’s a great chain email so all the ideas are in one place and I think the ritual there is to start that chain of creativity every single day and not forget a single day to do it because it keeps people in the know and it gets the cheering section going too.

John Carney: We’re running a little long but I wanted to just ask based on that, getting to the office, turning on the lights. Is the CEO per say, did you find that, that sets the precedent, you set the bar here and your employees coming in notice that and that expectation is set and you’re leading by example.

Nat Mundy: You know, I think what we really done is a great job of weeding out the rift-raft. And getting rid of sort of no department has a, it’s pretty linier company. Okay, so no department has crazy hierarchy, there is clear seniority at places in fact, there’s no feeling of animosity ever or like you’re not equal. I mean we all said the same table to lunch, there’s no crazy separation. But meanwhile, if I walk into the men’s room at one of those centers and it’s dirty, I’m mopping the floor. And you know, I expect them to do the same thing when they walk in. If the track marshal walks into a bathroom or sees like a cup on the ground while walking to get some food they should pick it up. They see me do it. As long as you’re willing to help set-up chairs you get the respect of other people that are there for a little bit.

John Carney: Yeah, that’s, that is powerful leading by example. Hey, look Nat I want to thank you very much for joining me today in the Locker Room. Where can the members of the audience find you if they want to carry on this conversation and learn more about the business.

Nat Mundy: I mean, is the website for the indoor track at Mount Kisco which is the mother ship. And the rest of the locations are under

And the real estate arm is – d-i-a-m-o-n-d-p-r-o-p-e-r-t-y-m-g-m-n-t dot com. And you know if anyone has any questions or wants to invest in centers or is looking for advice I’m always available for phone conversation or a quick email. Not a problem.

John Carney: Alright, perfect. There ya have it folks I truly hoped you picked up some actionable advice today from Nat Mundy. Make sure to check out The Post Game Report on iTunes and while you’re there please subscribe to the Real Estate Locker Room Show to ensure that you never miss out on the pro tips from our guests. The mission here is to help you elevate your real estate game and your business. If you like what this show is about I’d be grateful if you would leave us a 5 Star review here on iTunes and that way other like-minded people and investors like yourself will be able to find us when they search for “real estate.” You can visit John Carney online – for links and additional content associated with today’s show. So we will post all of those links that Nat just mentioned there for you to click through so you guys can get connected. And while you’re there drop your email in to get your newsletter. This is so you don’t miss out on any insight, tips, tricks, hacks, and other great stuff. So, remember to stay focused on your goals everybody, have fun, and stay in the game, I’m your host-John Carney, until next week, work hard, play hard, and profit hard. Thanks Nat.

Nat Mundy: Thank you, be good bud.

End Audio.


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