Posts tagged "construction"

JC 020: Having a good reputation matters in real estate with Peter Nintcheff

August 9th, 2017 | no comments

Being fair and honest in business leads to results

Peter Nintcheff is the in-house legal counsel for The Goldberg Companies, a national multifamily real estate developer headquartered in Cleveland, Ohio. GCI specializes in developing, owning and managing high-end apartment projects in Northeast Ohio, the Carolinas, Florida and Texas.

As general counsel, Peter is responsible for handling all legal matters for The Goldberg Companies.  His primary duties are preparing and negotiating all legal documents for the acquisition, development, financing and disposition of real property.  Peter also advises the company on leasing, zoning, tax and litigation matters and works closely with the executive team on all business aspects of property due diligence, financing and management of the company’s real estate assets.

As in house counsel, Peter is involved in every step in the development, construction and management of each project. He’s a transaction attorney who writes fair and neutral contracts to get deals done.

Peter believes that in order to have a highly successful business, you must maintain a good reputation in the market and always be fair and honest in dealing with buyers and sellers.

Operating with integrity allows Peter to build teams in multiple markets to accomplish the mission. Working with a strong team that includes complementary skills sets and different approaches makes accomplishing the job fun.

Five key points:

  1. You don’t have to be the best or strongest, or smartest in your field. You just have to utilize your natural skill set to the best of you ability to excel.
  2. Think of attorneys as guides who are able to help real estate professionals navigate the variety of issues that arise during due diligence and property transactions.
  3. Ensure that your purchase contract allows for an appropriate due diligence period. Give yourself plenty of time to do your due diligence on each property and the option to get your money back if your criteria are not met in that time period.
  4. Include a seller default provision in a purchase contract to ensure that the seller cannot negotiate / search for a better offer from a third party during the due diligence period.
  5. The buyer with the most money is not always the best buyer for a deal. Do your due diligence on buyers and on sellers to ensure that you are dealing with reliable, fair and honest people.

Favorite athletes: John McEnroe and Wayne Gretzky.

Favorite book: Running with the Kenyans by Adharanand Finn

Peter trains for success by planning ahead and being prepared.

Check out The Goldberg Companies online, http://www.goldbergcompanies.com and connect with Peter on LinkedIn or send him and email, pnintcheff@goldbergcompanies.com

Thank you Peter for taking time out of your busy schedule to share your insights with us today.

Listen to all the episodes of The Real Estate Locker Room Show and sign up for my FREE monthly newsletter at http://www.johncarneyonline.com

 

POST GAME REPORT: Episode Transcript

JC 020: Having a good reputation matters in real estate with Peter Nintcheff

Being fair and honest in business leads to results

 Announcer: Welcome to the, “Real Estate Locker Room Show” with John Carney. Did you know investing in real estate is a team sport? Join John and his guests as they explore the business of real estate and athletic competition. The goal for this show is to grant you direct access to the real estate pros that are closing profitable deals and growing their businesses. On the “Real Estate Locker Room Show” we are getting in the ring with successful investors, developers, operators, and all of the industry professionals to learn what it takes to achieve on-going success. Now it’s time to kick-off and level up with new ways to grow your real estate business.

 

John Carney: Welcome back to The Real Estate Locker Room Show everybody. I’m your host John Carney, coming at you again today from the sunny west side of Cleveland, Ohio. Joining me in the locker room today to talk about commercial real estate development and multifamily ownership development and operations, is the in-house legal counsel for The Goldberg Companies, and my cousin, Peter Nintcheff. Pete is the general counsel for The Goldberg Companies, which is a national real estate developer headquartered in Beachwood, Ohio, which is an eastside suburb of Cleveland, for those of you who are not from the northeast Ohio area.

GCI is a developer, owner and manager of high-end apartment projects in Northeast Ohio, North and South Carolina, Florida and Texas. GCI also owns and manages approximately 500 square feet of office, retail and flex space.

 

Prior to joining The Goldberg Companies, Peter was in private practice for six years. Now, as general counsel, he is responsible for handling all legal matters of the company. His primary duties are: preparing and negotiating all legal documents for the acquisition, development, financing and disposition of real property. Peter also advises the company on leasing, zoning, tax and litigation matters and works closely with the executive team on all business aspects of property due diligence, financing and management of the company’s real estate assets.

 

In recent years, The Goldberg Company’s focus has been on the development of Class A apartment projects in high-end suburban markets, primarily in the southeast. GCI is the developer, general contractor and manager of all new projects and Peter is involved in every step of the process. The goal is to own the property long term. So GCI pays particular attention to detail in order to produce the highest quality product in their respective markets. Sounds like The Goldberg Companies keep you pretty busy Peter!

 

Peter Nintcheff: Yes, we’ve been very active in the past few years. As you know, multifamily has been a very strong sector. We’ve developed several projects and currently have about 1000 units under construction. So yes, it’s been very busy and it’s been an exciting time.

 

John Carney: Yea cool. Can’t wait to dive into that. But before we kick off your day-to-day expertise and knowledge of what you do for The Goldberg Companies, I like to just get the show rolling with a stretching question, sports related of course. Who is your favorite athlete and what, if anything, have you learned by being a fan of that athlete and applied to your career?

 

Peter Nintcheff: My two favorite athletes of all time are Wayne Gretzky and John McEnroe. I admire them the most, I think, because if you look at both those guys, neither of them were the biggest, strongest, fastest athlete in their respective sport. Wayne Gretzky had a vision like nobody else. but there were people who were bigger, stronger and faster than him. I don’t know what he’d be like in today’s game—today’s hockey is a lot different. But he used his vision and his intelligence and his incredible skill to overcome any speed or strength deficiencies he may have had. And the same with John McEnroe. He was just a wily guy on the court and really knew the game and understood his opponent.

 

Those two guys were at the top of their sport, and again, not given probably the best physical tools. So I think if you step back, what you can learn from them is they had a very strong skill set, and they used that skillset to become the best. Maybe they weren’t the best or had the strongest skillset in everything, but they used their smarts and what they did have to be the best at their respective sport.

 

John Carney: That’s interesting too. Wayne Gretzky, at the end of the day, had a team of people supporting him. He had a great cast in his younger years with Edmonton. And then when you’re playing tennis, that’s a gladiator sport. There can only be one winner. You have your coaches, your trainers and your nutritionists and a whole cast these days. But probably back in John McEnroe’s’ day it was a thinner team. That’s pretty cool and interesting.

 

Peter Nintcheff: Yea, two different sports, like you said. One’s team and one’s individual, and they are actually two sports I played growing up and really enjoyed. So, I think you can learn from sports; both doing a team sport and working with your team mates, and an individual sport and really learning from yourself and relying on yourself out there. Like you said, you’re on an island and you’ve got to be the one.

 

John Carney: So, let’s jump into the exciting world of developing, owning, and operating a multifamily/commercial real estate business and being a critical player. I always stress with people who are starting out in real estate (the seasoned people playing at the high level know this very well) that your accountants and your lawyers, are important team players for any size real estate business. Even if that business only owns one rental property or an Airbnb. Because they’re part of the initial structure and the protection. So, from the legal side of it, can you just talk a little bit about how you use the law to protect your client and to work towards the best outcome?

 

Peter Nintcheff: Sure. So, as an in-house counsel, my role is a little bit different than an outside attorney that somebody would engage. You take a development process and if there’s ten steps, I’m involved in step one through ten. Whereas, if you’re engaging an outside attorney, you may bring them in in step seven, and have them guide you kind of towards the end.

 

So when I say I’m involved in step one with our company, what we do is we try to go out and find land, do our due diligence, purchase the land, then we’re going to obtain a construction loan, build it, own it, manage it. So it’s a long process and I’m involved in every step. So that keeps me involved in the due diligence (i.e. is the zoning in place?) and possibly meeting with municipalities and meeting with even local attorneys to understand the zoning and the due diligence on the property, and going through all those steps.

 

Like you said, I do agree that relying on an attorney is, even in a small transaction or a big transaction, very important. Because there can be certain issues in any real estate transaction that can arise, where they can kind of guide you through the process, whether it be a title or a survey issue, a zoning issue, or a tax issue. I was a real estate attorney before (in private practice). So I view myself as a very good real estate attorney and know the legal aspect well, but I don’t know other things. So I have to go out and rely on outside counsel for tax advice, which plays a very big role in our business. Because we’ve been in business for about 50 years, we have smaller assets that we have sold off in recent years, and we’ve had to go out and 1031 those assets (1031 exchange). And then we use the proceeds from those assets to acquire new assets. Because it’s a very tax-driven method of doing it, I’m going to rely on my outside tax attorney to guide me through that process. So there’s a lot of different issues that could come up, and there are different people and different types of attorneys that can help guide you through those issues.

 

John Carney: Alright, just to further that, you do a lot of contract work. I would imagine reviewing contracts and drafting contracts. What would be, if you’re, say, going to purchase a property, like The Goldberg Company is going to purchase a company, and you’re given a purchase agreement by the seller, what are the things that you look out for or that you could advise our listeners to look out for if they’ve never seen one of these before, or if they’re reviewing it? What are the highlights: good points, bad points, that you might want to look for in a purchase agreement?

 

Peter Nintcheff: Sure. Number one, it depends on what you’re buying. I’d like to say that I’m a transactional attorney. I have form contracts that I start off with that I think are very of neutral. Both the buyer and the seller theoretically want to do the deal. So I want to do something that’s fair, something that’s pretty straight forward. But it really depends on what type of property you’re buying.

 

So right now, we’re doing more land purchases. We’re not going out and buying existing apartment communities. So those are two very different purchase agreements. So for a land purchase agreement, I’ll talk more about concepts. What I’m really looking for is an opportunity to have a due diligence period. I think for our group that’s probably the most important thing. Initially I’m going to ask for about 90 days to do my due diligence and have that be a free look. We’ll put money up in an escrow account, say $50,000 to $100,000. But in that 90 days I get to do my due diligence, and if I’m not satisfied with the property, I want to have the ability to get my money back.

 

And during that due diligence period, we’re going to be doing our soils testing, our environmental, our title, our survey, all of our due diligence, to really get our arms around the property. So that, number one, is one of the first provisions that I’m going to ask for, is a due diligence period.

Other than that, I think what the contract really has to do is just kind of spell out what’s going to happen: who is responsible for payment of the transfer taxes; how real estate taxes are going to be pro-rated; what’s going to happen at closing; when that closing is going to be. Another real big issue for us, is when that closing is going to be. So, I’m going to have a 90-day free look. If the zoning is in place and everything is in place, I’m willing to close within 15 days after that.

 

I’ll give you an example. We’re looking at a property in Michigan which has significant environmental issues, so my due diligence period is longer. And we’re looking to get tax increment financing money, so we’re meeting with the city. All that takes a lot of time, so I’m going to look for a long closing period.

 

Sometimes if my due diligence period expires in 90 days, I may not close on the property for a year after contract execution, because it takes a long time to get through the process to where we’re comfortable with the environmental and getting all the city and state approvals that we’re going to need. So, you really want to build those time periods in from the get go.

 

Because I’m doing my due diligence, I’ll ask the seller for certain representations. But oftentimes they’re not willing to give me too much. They’re going to say, “Hey buyer, you go rely on your own due diligence.” But I’m going to ask them to say, “Hey, yes, they’re not aware of any environmental issues, they have the authority to sell it, they own clear title”, provisions like that. You’re going to ask them if they know if there’s anything wrong with the property. But again, they’re going to try to limit that.

And with land, I’m not too worried about that. In purchase agreements, oftentimes you’ll see a condemnation provision or a damage and destruction provision. Meaning, if something happens to the property, if it catches fire during the contract period or if a municipality initiates a taking during the contract period, that they have the ability to get out. Usually those aren’t big issues, and I’m not going to negotiate those too heavily, but that’s something you’ll see in a contract.

 

And I guess the last thing that has been a hot button for us of late, especially on a deal that’s going to be under contract for a long time, is the seller default provision. Usually we’re in markets where there’s a lot of demand, so there’s a fear that the seller goes and tries to get a better offer, and tries to go to a different buyer. So, usually in a default provision you’ll see a specific performance; meaning that the seller has to perform, and that you can sue them if they haven’t. Or what we really want is: we’re spending a lot of money during our due diligence process, up to $100,000. If they default for some reason, if they don’t step up to the closing table, I want the ability to get out of my agreement and then come after them for the money that I’ve spent on my due diligence.

 

So, those are some of the provisions that I’m looking for in our contracts. And again, like I said, if you’re doing a built project, it’s a little bit different. You’re buying a property where there’s tenant leases in place, and you want to make sure you get to rent rolls. There’s different types of due diligence that you’re doing, and some different things that you’re going to be concerned about because there’s a physical structure in place.

 

John Carney: Right, so that’s all really good advice and a great summary of some of the things you want to be aware of when you’re making any offer. I suppose on a single-family home purchase it would be called an inspection period. But that’s — I’m not going to say it’s interesting — it’s a great explanation on the seller default. I would imagine that is something that you see included, or something that you add in your contract language. Just knowing that you’re trying to protect against something that could potentially happen? I’m sure it’s happened in the past. I’m sure there’s a lot of stories out there; people who have lost a deal because they didn’t have that provision, right?

 

Peter Nintcheff: Well, I think you’ll pretty much see both a seller and buyer default provision in every contract. And with the buyer default provision, you’re going to see that the seller will be entitled to the earnest money they put up. And again, for a piece of land, we’re trying to put up a small earnest money deposit because what’s the seller really losing?

 

In a built project, you’re going to see a much more significant deposit. And, maybe one contract execution and then another one after the inspection period ends (in between closing). So you’ll see both of those in pretty much every contract.

 

In a seller default, usually what you see is, the buyer has the right to either terminate or sue for specific requirements. But like I said, we try to add in a little bit more and just say, “Hey listen seller, you’re also going to reimburse us for our costs.” And we’re trying to hold their feet to the fire to bring them to the closing table.

 

Because if we have a property under contract for a year, not only have we spent a lot of money, but we’re getting ready to get our development team into place and we’re looking at this as a way to increase our capital for our company in a future ownership deal. And obviously, if we’ve invested that much time in it, we’re very excited about it and we want to close. So it’s just a little something extra to make sure the seller performs. But I think you’ll see both the buyer and seller default provision in every contract. We’ve never had an issue, knock on wood, and hopefully that continues, but certainly you want to protect yourself. There are times when a party doesn’t perform.

 

John Carney: Well you haven’t had an issue because The Goldberg Companies has such good in-house counsel, right?

 

Peter Nintcheff: That’s right. I’d like to say that, but we also have a good reputation and a proven closing track record. We’ve sold a few things—we’re usually not sellers of properties. But when we sold some smaller assets we are very selective in our buyers too, and I think that’s important. Sometimes the best offer isn’t really the best offer. If you have a known buyer who has a proven track record of closing, they may be your best buyer, even though they’re not offering the most money.

Sometimes, what we’ve seen is: you get a buyer who offers the most money, you get your due diligence period and they’re going to come back to you and try to re-trade on you and lower their purchase price. They’ll say, “Well, we found this, this, and this wrong with the property. We want the purchase price lowered by x.” So you’re kind of back to where you started. And maybe an offer that was lower initially would have been a better offer because it was a better buyer.

 

So you want to make sure you do your due diligence on your buyer and your due diligence on your seller. So it’s good to know who you’re dealing with. I think we’re known as having a good track record as owners and buyers and sellers. So I think that’s important.

 

John Carney: That’s a great point, and something that I believe in. And if you listen to Warren Buffet or anyone who’s running a highly successful business (Richard Branson) you want to have a good reputation in your business, whether you’re in the real estate business or retail business, right? Because it does matter.

What you’ve just said, I think is worth reiterating: it matters if you have that reputation for being somebody that closes. You’ll probably inevitably do more deals, grow your business, and be more profitable. As opposed to earning the reputation (reputations are earned), o trying to hammer in lower pricing at the end, maybe illegitimate concerns at the end of a due diligence period, or just not being able to get your financing in order and close a deal. Those are good points that you brought up.

 

It matters when you want to play at the highest level, to be entering the arena with a good reputation as a seller who’s fair and honest, and as a buyer that says what they are going to do. Is that a good way to look at it?

 

Peter Nintcheff: Absolutely. I agree, and I thank you; you hit the nail right on the head when you said fair and honest. And I think that’s the approach that I try to take from the get go when I’m negotiating a contract with a buyer or a seller’s attorney, or even just dealing with the buyer or seller themselves. If you’re fair and honest with them and you expect the same from them, I think you’re ultimately going to have a good result. And even when we’re looking at a piece of property where there are some issues, and we’re not sure if we’re going to be able to get through those issues, say from a due diligence standpoint, we always keep our seller informed of what we’re doing, where we’re at, and say “Hey listen, we have some environmental issues, and we really have to get our arms around them, and if we can’t, we can’t purchase the property.” And they’re saying, “Listen, we’re ok, because you’re being honest with us. We understand that there are issues, we understand that you have to get through them.”

 

So I think if you’re fair and honest throughout the process — like I say, we try to keep our sellers informed of what we’re doing and where we’re at — I think that goes a long way. Good communications, and so that there’s no surprises down the road and they know that we’re doing our homework and if we can’t get comfortable with it, they understand. And I think that helps our reputation out.

 

John Carney: Perfect. Well one question I wanted to ask based on, sort of, the John McEnroe conversation from earlier is: when you left private practice and you started out at The Goldberg Companies, which puts a lot of responsibility on your shoulders, was that like that championship tennis match? What was that experience like? And maybe you can talk just a little bit about the team you have around you internally, because we believe it’s a team sport at the end of the day, real estate.

 

Peter Nintcheff: So that’s a good analogy. When I left private practice — because I was at a medium sized law firm, I believe there were about eight real estate lawyers in our department. We had tax attorneys, other business attorneys, litigation attorneys. So if I had any questions — because I don’t know everything and I don’t pretend to know everything — it was easy to go down the hall and ask colleagues questions or for some help. Maybe they changed something that would help me out on something I was working on. And then when I came in-house, I’m still the only attorney here, so I was kind of on an island, so I kind of had to do everything by myself. But I didn’t do everything myself, let’s be honest.

 

So we set up kind of a team, I have a team of outside attorneys that I use. I have tax attorneys, I have local attorneys in the states that we are in that I use for guidance. So it took me a few years to kind of develop that network of people who I really rely on. I have a title company that closes all of our deals in North Carolina and they’re fantastic. I give them business and they pick up the phone anytime there’s an issue. So you build these relationships and you build these networks and you get a group of people that you rely on and trust, and it makes your life and job a lot easier. And it makes these deals that we do go a lot smoother, and that’s really what you’re looking for.

 

And since I’ve been here, we really have developed an in-house team as well. Like I said, I’m the only, I guess, practicing attorney. There are other people here with law degrees, but we have a due diligence team. We have a director of acquisitions who goes out and finds our property. We have an investment officer. We have a construction manager. The four of us meet every week, and we go through deals. We have very different ideas, and we’re looking at deals in very different ways, but we complement each other very well. The development manager, wants to close a deal, and I sometimes have to put the brakes on things and say, “Hey listen, we need to look at these issues.” Our construction manager can read the due diligence reports and understand what kind of soils we’re looking at. Are these right for development? Can we build here? He can read the environmental reports. And the investment officer, obviously, is looking at if will the pro forma work, will it pencil, are we going to be able to get the return that we desire?

 

So when you put the four of us together, we have very different skill sets and different personalities. But I think in a real estate transaction it kind of covers almost everything that you need, at least in house, to get us to analyze these deals well. And then we use our outside folks as well to help us. Whether it be with a zoning issue, or if you’ll use local counsel for that.

 

So when you develop these networks and you develop these teams, it really helps. Especially when you have people who have complementing skillsets and personalities and work together well. It makes the deal a lot smoother and a lot more enjoyable. It makes for good constructive discussion and it makes an exciting process.

 

John Carney: That’s good to hear, because it sounds like you guys are having fun. You’re finding great deals and you’re getting a lot done. We’re kind of at the point where we wind this down with a few final questions, Pete. I’m putting together a pretty extensive reading list now by asking all of our guests a few questions that we call our two-minute drill. Do you have a favorite book that you’ve read recently along the business lines, that you could recommend or a nonfiction book that you think is something that you turn back to once in a while? Maybe it inspired you or taught you something that you apply every day?

 

Peter Nintcheff: I’ll be perfectly honest, I don’t read a lot of books. I spend most of my day reading, and so then when I’m not in the office, I haven’t been reading a whole lot, so I’ll have to get back to you on that one. I don’t have a whole lot of advice. I’ve read a few running books lately, which I’ve enjoyed. There was one, “Running with the Kenyans,” that I thought that was very, very interesting, about an Englishman who lived with Kenyan runners for a period of time to try to figure out why they’re so far superior. That’s the only non-fiction book I’ve read recently. But you get good lessons from those as well. Good life lessons. No business books, sorry.

 

John Carney: Well look, it didn’t have to be a business book. Maybe I didn’t phrase that properly on my own list of questions. It could also be a sports book, so you ticked that off. But I mean, you are a runner, you’ve run multiple marathons, and we know you’re a Spartan.

 

Peter Nintcheff: Now I’m a Spartan. Thanks to you John. I enjoyed that experience as well.

 

John Carney: Alright. You’ve talked extensively about what you do day-to-day. Is there anything that comes to mind, like a come from behind victory where everything falls in line right at the zero hour to get documents signed and wires sent, that you can think of? And maybe an obstacle that you overcame to help bring a deal to the forefront? Or do you get everything ironed out smooth ahead of time.

 

Peter Nintcheff: Well everything has to come together at the last minute, and we’ve had quite a few of those. I guess I try to over-prepare. I try to really, really plan ahead and make sure, if I’m using local counsel, if I’m using a title company out of state, if the seller has attorneys out of state, that everything is going to come together without issue. And to do that, I think you really need to plan ahead. So I’m trying to plan weeks ahead.

 

I’ll just give you a recent example: my parents, my brother, my siblings, we were all in Wyoming a couple weeks ago at a ranch. We had no cell service and there was a dialup internet on the ranch and that was it. And during that time I was closing a transaction in Florida that we had been working on for about a year. So of course, it comes up, well, while you’re gone.

 

So the week before I was gone, I had everything that we could get done, done. And everything, using my team here to send things into escrow, to get all the documents signed that I didn’t have signed. But everything that I did have in my possession was signed. Everything was ready to go, gave detailed instructions, and it all came together on the Thursday that we were on the ranch. I was probably horseback riding or fly fishing at the time, but it’s nice — that felt really good to me, that I had a team here, that I was prepared, and I got our seller’s attorney on board and our seller on board, because they knew I was going to be gone, but we had to close. We had a tax deadline while I was gone, because of a 1031 exchange (your period ends 180 days after you sell, and you have to use your proceeds). And we were right at that period. So we had to get that done and with a lot of preparation, a lot of planning ahead, we got it done while I was without cell service and only had a dialup internet. I did check my emails a couple times on the dial up, which is certainly different than what we’re normally used to, but it was a good feeling.

 

John Carney: That’s a great way to exit this interview, Pete. I mean, always prepare. A good plan is better than a wish and a prayer, I suppose. Well, thank you very much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to join me in the locker room today, Pete. Is there any where the audience can find you if they have any questions? Is there a way to contact you? Is sending people to The Goldberg Company’s website the best place, or do you used LinkedIn or any social media?

 

Peter Nintcheff: I am on LinkedIn. That is really the only social media that I’m on. You can search my name, but it either comes out with me or my Dad, we’re the only Peter Nintcheffs out there.

Go on our website, check out our properties at Goldberg, just do a google search for Goldberg Companies. You’ll see some of the stuff that we’ve done, especially some of the stuff that we’ve done recently. I think is really spectacular.

I don’t think there’s any link to my information on the site, but email is my first initial and my last name @goldbergcompanies.com and I’m happy to shed further light on what I’ve discussed today, or certainly provide any insight that I can to you and your audience. And John, thanks for having me, I appreciate the opportunity to talk a little bit about what I do.

 

John Carney: Yea thanks. It was a great interview, and we will make sure that we have all the appropriate links in the show notes and the post-game report on my website. So there you have it folks. I truly hope that you picked up some actionable advice today from Peter Nintcheff, who is in-house counsel for the Goldberg companies.

Make sure to check out the Real Estate Locker Room Show on iTunes, Stitcher or Google Play, and hit that subscribe button to ensure that you never miss out on the pro tips from our great guests. The mission here is to help you elevate your real estate game by learning from the experiences of the people who are out there doing it every day.

If you like what this show’s all about I’d be grateful if you would leave us a five-star review on iTunes or whatever your preferred podcast platform is so that other like-minded real estate investors just like you are able to find this show online.

The post-game report show notes that I just mentioned, with links to this show and Peter Nintcheff will be available on my website: johncarneyonline.com/podcast and while you’re visiting the website you can look through the catalogue of past shows, or drop your email address into the newsletter sign up form to receive the occasional update from myself.

Remember to stay focused on your goals, have fun and stay in the game. I’m your host John Carney and until next week: work hard play hard and profit hard.

Thanks Pete. Have a great day and look forward to catching up with you and the family soon.

 

(Music Out)

End Audio

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JC 019: $400 million dollars of development in 18 months with Tom Charek

August 2nd, 2017 | 2 comments
Accelerate your success with a team who complements your strengths

The Real Estate Locker Room Show with John Carney EP 019Tom Charek offers his clients the knockout combination of his experience as a large-scale commercial builder and his training as an engineer. Tom is no stranger to large-scale projects and completed $400 million dollars of development in 18 months with the Geis Companies in Cleveland, Ohio.

Tom combines his experience on the construction and project management side of a deal with his knowledge of business structure and finance to deliver a total package to his clients who invest in a range of development from apartment buildings to hotels to office buildings. Tom will tell you if a deal is bad early on so that you don’t waste time and money and you can keep moving forward.

The three questions that you must ask when evaluating a development opportunity are:

1) is the land good?

2) is the city good?

3) is it easy to build?

Tom entered the real estate investing game when he was looking to own his first home. He fixed and flipped his way to success by purchasing and renovating a tri-plex, collecting the rent, managing the property and exiting for a profit. A few years of hard work and hustle will pay off if you are willing to make sacrifices and self-manage your investment properties.

Many investors hold onto properties for too long. Tom recommends selling an investment property after you renovate so that you maximize the improvement value and you do not have to spend time, effort and money a second time. Trends change so plan your exit and renovations accordingly.

Tom encourages investors to study their local market and determine where for the same rental rate you can purchase or build for the lowest cost.

5 Key Points

  • Say “yes” to opportunity
  • Know the rental rates for your product type. You want to invest / build where rental rates are high and costs are lower
  • When starting out, self managing your investment properties will keep you accountable
  • Maximize the improvement value of your investment buy not holding it for any longer than three years after you renovate
  • Surround yourself with a team of people who complement your strengths

Favorite athlete: Kevin Love – NBA player

Favorite book(s):

Bringing Out the Best in People by Aubrey Daniels

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey

Tom trains for success by reading for 2 hours daily. Reading and gaining more knowledge is the key to gaining the advantage in business / life.

Thank you Tom for taking some time out to share your business insights with us.

You may connect with Tom Charek direct on LinkedIn or you can reach Tom at Pride One Construction http://www.prideoneconstruction.com and “like” Pride One of Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/prideoneconstruction

Listen to all the episodes of The Real Estate Locker Room Show and sign up for my FREE monthly newsletter at http://www.johncarneyonline.com

 

Connect with John Carney
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© John Carney 2017

JC 011: Travel, love and mobile home parks with Bryce Robertson

May 17th, 2017 | 2 comments

 

Meet Your Australian Mobile Home Park Mate

Born in Australia, Bryce Robertson spent six years travelling all over the world. Visiting over 50 countries on six continents, he gained priceless life experience and insight into the both the world of business and personal relationships. The lessons he learned help shape the way he lives his life and handle his business dealings.

While travelling, Bryce met his wife and inspiration Tiffany. They settled in California and set out together on a new adventure in the business of real estate.

With years of experience in construction and real estate Bryce became interested in the business of mobile home park investing and made it his niche.

His company, Property Works, specializes in all aspects of the mobile home park business as well as offering mentorship, advice and educational services to investors.

Five key points

  • Look for the right market when investing in mobile park homes: the median house price should be over $100,000 and the apartment rents in the area should be one and a half times that of the rents in the mobile home community.

 

  • Find yourself an experienced mentor in your field of interest that will show you the ropes.

 

  • Have the confidence to just put yourself out there: take massive action and learn by doing. You will gain experience and insights much quicker by doing than by trying to learn from a book.

 

  • Have integrity: “how you do anything is how you do everything.” Get the small things right, and the big things will be done right as well.

 

  • Take some time in the morning to experience gratitude for your life, set intentions for the day and your long-term goals. Then during the day it’s important to take mini time-outs; to refocus and regain clarity.

 

Favorite athlete – Alfie Langer Australian Rugby League player

Favorite book –  The Unbeatable Mind by Mark Divine

Check out Mark Divine’s podcast here: http://unbeatablemind.com/podcast/

You can get in touch with Bryce by phone +1 (714) 603-1394 or email, Robertson.e.bryce@gmail.com.

Reach out to the Property Works team at http://www.propertyworkzllc.com

Thank you Bryce for taking some time out to share your insights with us.

Listen to all the episodes of The Real Estate Locker Room Show and sign up for my FREE monthly newsletter at http://www.johncarneyonlie.com

POST GAME REPORT: Episode Transcript

JC 011:  Travel, love and mobile home parks with Bryce Robertson

 

Announcer: Welcome to the, “Real Estate Locker Room Show” with John Carney. Did you know investing in real estate is a team sport? Join John and his guests as they explore the business of real estate and athletic competition. The goal for this show is to grant you direct access to the real estate pros that are closing profitable deals and growing their businesses. On the “Real Estate Locker Room Show” we are getting in the ring with successful investors, developers, operators, and all of the industry professionals to learn what it takes to achieve on-going success. Now it’s time to kick-off and level up with new ways to grow your real estate business.

John Carney: Welcome back to the Real Estate Locker Room Show. I’m your host John Carney, coming at you today from Cleveland Ohio, and joining me in the locker room out in sunny California is Bryce Robertson, who is your Australian Mobile Home Park mate and the principle of Property Works. Property Works specializes in mobile home park investments: from due diligence to assignments, syndication and property management. They are your mobile home park one stop shop.

Bryce is a real estate investing entrepreneur; an educator; and the large driving force behind the highly-geared Property Works team. A native from Australia, Bryce has 20 years experience in major construction, real estate and business. Bryce has travelled to well over 50 countries on six continents in search of greater wisdom and prosperity, which he will be sharing with us here shortly. He’s owned businesses in five countries on three continents, making him an international entrepreneur as well. He is definitely a well-versed entrepreneur and highly skilled to accommodate your local, national and international mobile home park investing needs. Thank you for joining us today Bryce. Thank you for taking the time to give our audience a little bit of insight on the world of mobile home park investing.

 

Bryce Robertson: Gidday John. I’m so excited to be here today. Real estate and sports, how exciting.

 

John Carney: I know, and we’ve got another Australian on the line; and this podcast is still in its infancy, but you’re guest number two. Your mate Reed Goossens has joined us before.

 

Bryce Robertson: Oh, beautiful.

 

John Carney: And we’re going to explore the intersection of the business of real estate investing and sports. I just personally like to draw the parallel between business and sports. I believe that business, and especially the real estate business, is a team sport, and we want to learn a little bit more about your business and your team.

 

Bryce Robertson: Very exciting.

 

John Carney: Well, to kick things off, let’s have a quick stretching question. Who, growing up, was your favorite professional athlete, and if it’s an Australian, will you please share with the U.S. audience who that person is and why?

 

Bryce Robertson: Yea, I’d say Alfie Langer. I used to watch rugby league and play rugby league in Australia, and he was an inspiration because he was a real team player and a real go-getter. And it didn’t matter what was going on, he would always come out successful. Even if they didn’t win, he always gave 100%, and I just thought that was super inspiring and yea, he was a really good bloke.

 

John Carney: So, competing in sports at a young age, looking back on it, winding the clock back now as a busy real estate professional and an entrepreneur, do you ever think about those lessons you learned from your heroes and from your coaches?

 

Bryce Robertson: Yea, and also just from my team members as well. Like, I played rugby league when I was a kid, and I was always an independent type of kid, and I soon realized when playing rugby league, that if I didn’t pass the ball to anyone else, that no one would pass the ball to me. And so that really let me know that to glide through the game with ease, or now through life with ease, that it requires building and maintaining trust and harmony in relationships.

 

John Carney: Yea, definitely. So, when you are working in your current environment, the mobile home park investing environment: talk to our listeners a little bit about what you do and how your business property works and enables investors to jump into the mobile home park investing environment.

 

Bryce Robertson: Sure. So, when it comes to mobile home parks, we own, operate, syndicate and educate, we basically take poorly managed mobile home park assets and then turn them around into much more profitable businesses that are a clean, safe environment. And our specific niche in mobile home parks is in the affordable housing space. In America and Europe, the economy is booming. Or if it’s taking a dive, there’s always going to be a massive need for affordable housing. And through the process of what we do, we provide a platform for other investors to invest their money in a very recession proof and very popular, now, asset class.

 

John Carney: So, can you just give us a little bit of a backstory on how that’s where you are now, but you started out in the real estate career right out of school, in construction management or on a construction site, like so many other operators.

 

Bryce Robertson: Well, I travelled the world for over six years. I went to about fifty countries and I thought I had it all figured out, because I had a travel pattern. And what I did, was I’d work, save some money, travel, and then run out of money and then repeat the cycle. And then I realized quickly there was a problem with what I was doing. Because at that point, my money, my income, wasn’t sustainable. So, at the end of each travel cycle I’d run out of money and I had to start all over again from scratch.

 

So, in the last six months of my six-year world travel, I met my wife Tiffany in the Caribbean. And she’s from California, so when I came to America and began my life here, we made a promise to each other to create a life that we wanted to live, yet make it sustainable. So we began looking at different ways we could make income. And we explored multi-level marketing and real estate and the stock market. It very soon became very clear that real estate was our destiny, because at that point my wife had a twelve-year background in mortgage and finance, and I had a 20 year background in construction management. So we teamed up.

 

And we began an extensive path of education, not only in real estate, but in all areas of life. And we soon found ourselves caught up in the hype of single-family fix and flips. And before too long, my wife Tiffany said to me she wanted to do something more people orientated instead of crunching numbers and searching through statistics. So, she became a realtor, and I branched off into commercial real estate investing, which I honestly wanted to do from the beginning. And that led me to the massive, passive income producing mobile home parks.

My mother-in-law had a mobile home near to Disneyland. I was over there one time and she told me she’d paid off her mobile home about five years ago, but she was still paying a thousand dollars a month in rent for the land that her home was sitting on. And I was like, “What? You own your home but you still pay a thousand dollars a month to rent the land off someone? Your landlord must be killing it!” So, I ran out front of the home, and I looked at all the homes that were in the community, and I counted about a hundred of them. And then I did the math, that’s over $100,000 a month in revenue. I need to learn more about this. And the next thing you know, I started buying mobile home parks.

 

John Carney: So that was a lightbulb moment for you with your understanding of real estate and having been at your mother-in-law’s. Will you sort of set the picture for some of our Australian audience? This was brought up by my business partner when I was living in Australia and we were running America Property Source, and talking about mobile home parks. He said it doesn’t translate over here. We have caravan parks and it’s just not like America, especially when you break it down that you have class A, B and C assets in a mobile home park community or in a multi-family community. So, would you be able to elaborate a little bit more about the mobile home parks and what opportunity you look for and zero in on in your business?

 

Bryce Robertson: There isn’t really anything comparable in Australia. I suppose there’s caravan parks, which would be equivalent to like an RV park over here, and it’s more really for recreational use, not for permanent or long-term living. But in America, mobile homes are homes that get towed around on the back of a truck, and they get set down and they are semi-permanent. But once you set one down, you don’t really move it, because it costs like five to ten grand to move it to somewhere else, to set it down and get it signed off. So, they’re pretty much sort of permanent type homes, and a mobile home park is a colony of those homes.

What we look for in a good market in a mobile home park is where the comparable two to three bedroom rents of apartments in the same city, in the same area, will be at least one and a half times that of the rents in our mobile home community. And we also look for the median house pricing to be over $100,000. By looking at those two metrics, it creates a big gap in the need for affordable housing and where else are our residents and tenants going to live if they don’t live in a mobile home park? The step is just really huge for them to move into an apartment or buy a house. They just wouldn’t qualify.

And another benefit of our residents living in a mobile home community is they have their own home and they have their own yard and they don’t share walls with people. They don’t have anybody walking above them upstairs, and they get the pride of actually owning their own home. Because in a mobile home park you can own the home and then all you have to do is rent the land off the landlord.

 

John Carney: In your parks, are the utilities paid for by the owner tenants or by the owner operator? Just out of curiosity.

 

Bryce Robertson: We try to lean towards the tenants paying the utilities, but the market will decide what’s going on there. It depends on what the market rents are and what’s acceptable in the market. But we do like to all-encompass everything so that the tenants are paying for the utilities and their rent as well.

 

John Carney: So, in order to start with one park – I would imagine everyone starts with one, when you started looking at the acquisition for your first park, what did your team look like? Can you explain that a little bit?

 

Bryce Robertson: For a team I would say get a mentor, first thing. You don’t even need to figure everything out. Just go there and get a mentor, and then you can have someone to fall back on. But yea, I would definitely say team up with somebody who has expertise and who’s done it before.

 

And you’re going to need a real estate attorney, a CPA, and a lender. You’re best off going out and searching for a lender first, because once you get a deal under contract, it’s crunch time, you’re on the clock and you don’t want to be scrambling around trying to find somebody to get a loan.

 

And then once you have your location where your mobile home park is going to be, then you’re going to build your construction crews for doing any rehabs to the homes. You’re going to have your plumbers, your electricians, your carpenters, and you’re going to find your landscapers, and all the other contractors that will be there to maintain and upkeep the property. And as far as a property manager, we do all the offsite management ourselves, and we also train people who live in the community to be onsite managers as well.

 

John Carney: That’s a great business model, as far as the management, right? Because I believe firmly that it doesn’t matter what asset class in real estate you’re investing in, if people are paying to rent space, the property management is a very critical component. That’s not downplaying any of the other team members.

 

You’ve been to all these countries, you’ve met an American lady, you’ve moved to California, you’ve made a commitment to be here, and you’ve chosen real estate. You’re in commercial on the investing and the brokerage side, correct? And your wife is on the residential side. How did you get to that first deal? Because that’s the entrepreneurial journey that I’m interested in. I would also like you to tie in how all that travel gave you the confidence to just get your hands dirty right away?

 

Bryce Robertson: I think the travel really allowed me to expand who I was and my confidence as a person, to really just go out there. You see, each time I travelled to a new country, there were a few areas through my travel where I set up basecamp. Each time I went to one of those basecamps, I had to start off fresh. I didn’t know anything about the area. Sometimes I didn’t even speak the native language fluently. And I had to start up my life there. I found that it always was the same thing: it just came down to drive and determination, and then learning the local knowledge or the knowledge of what I needed to learn as I was going. But when I was launching in each country, I didn’t have the time to sit back and figure it all out, I would’ve dramatically failed and I would have been living on the streets.

 

So, translate that into real estate and getting my first commercial deals going on. I went out there and got the base fundamentals of the education that I needed to get started, and then it was all about massive action. I was just absolutely obsessed about commercial real estate. I learned everything I possibly could and just threw myself out there in the action, and just started looking at deals and crunching numbers. And after not too long, I started to see the commonality and the patterns in what I was doing. I was learning from mistakes, and I really think, personally, that through action and experience is one of the best ways to learn. And so, I just put myself out there and just committed to it and just held up that tenacity.

 

John Carney: Did you ever have any travel experiences that were just so bad that they gave you a frame of reference, that when things aren’t going right on Monday morning in your mobile home park business, you’re like “Well, it’s not as bad as that one time.”?

 

Bryce Robertson: Well, you see I did have a lot of amazing adventures when I was travelling and I think that all of them were beneficial. Maybe at the time I’d felt that they were scary or something like that. But I think one of the biggest lessons I learnd out of all of that is: every time I look back at somewhere where I went wrong through my travels, it was because I broke one of my basic fundamental travel rules. I had a handful of travel rules that were geared around safety and common sense, and if I’d broken outside of one of those rules, that’s when the madness happened. And so, translating that into real estate, I need to stay grounded on my morals and my integrity in business and making sure that I’m not going outside there. And really, any time I have some sort of temporary failure, I’m usually just on the brink of a massive success. So, I think failures are just as successful as the good things that happen to us in life.

 

John Carney: That’s great advice. Could you elaborate on what are a few of your main drivers and what are a couple of your main rules for investing in real estate or operating your business? You mentioned integrity. Would you elaborate on those principles that you hold yourself accountable to every day?

 

Bryce Robertson: Sure. I always want to create win/win/win situations for people in any deal, whether it’s negotiating with a contractor, hiring a manager, or putting a whole deal together. I really want everybody to walk away feeling that they got something, they got some sort of value out of it. And every player in the deal wants some sort of different metric that’s valuable to them. And I think that comes down to creative deal structuring in whatever we do. So, it’s important to me that I leave every deal with everybody happy and that everything is harmonized.

Number two: Integrity. I think how you do anything is how you do everything. And if I’m getting all the small things right in time, each time, and I’m doing the right things by people, then I’ll be doing the big things right as well.

 

What else? You know, relationships are huge. So I definitely like to keep good relationships at all times, and I really like to listen to my gut. When I’m coming to a decision and I’m tossed up between, “Should I go this way or should I go that way?” I tend to stop, relax, take a deep breath, and just really connect with myself and what I really think the answer is, without any of the carrots dangling in front of me. And usually when I stop and ground myself, I’ll find the answers. But if I’m charging ahead because I’m excited about the outcome, then I’ve found that that’s where sometimes I could make a poor decision.

 

John Carney: So, in a way you pause. There’s no rapid fire emotional decisions, especially when there’s a big decision. Look, I think that’s all great advice, or a seriously good method to follow. Can you elaborate: is there anything you do as a daily practice that helps you prepare for your day, that might tie into all this? Because you sound like over the years you have a lot of experience with business and travel and real estate. Have you come up with that time of day – most people choose the morning – where you get yourself sorted out; then you go out, then you do well at work.

 

Bryce Robertson: Yea, I think the morning’s the best. You know, waking up and just fully experiencing gratitude for everything that I have in my life, and everything I’m surrounded by. And then creating an intention for all of my basic goals to be real, as if I’m already living them. And really take the time to take care of my nutrition and get myself started in the beginning of the day. And if I start the day off on the right foot then that’s perfect.

 

And then periodically through the day I like to take little time-outs, so I can regain clarity. So, things I like to do are yoga, or I might want to go surfing. I’m a big fan of CrossFit, so I love having an intense workout and just smashing any of the stresses out of my life. I feel like I’m shedding skin each time I exercise. And really focusing on other areas in my life that I think are important, like relationships and health and spirituality and fun and recreation. When we all put them together, those five areas of our life really build off each other and help generate even more wealth and success in business.

 

John Carney: So, now you’re still just as much of an athlete; you might not be on the rugby pitch, but you’re at CrossFit, which is highly demanding, and you’re surfing and you’re doing yoga and you’re looking after yourself physically. Do you plan to pick up any team sports?

 

Bryce Robertson: Not necessarily team, most of the stuff I do is individual. It can be done sort of as a team sport. I just completed my first marathon a few months ago. I’ve been doing a few triathlons and obstacle challenge races over the last few years. As far as a team sport, I mean real estate investing is a team sport. But as far as an actual athletic sport, I just like to do my sports, and I like to do them with other people. So, when I’m surfing, I’d much prefer to do that with friends.

 

John Carney: Social wave.

 

Bryce Robertson: Yes, exactly.

 

John Carney: I got it. That’s fantastic. Alright, well, if you’re an investor out in the market, and you’re unsure about where to begin in real estate, how do people find you? And what could you do to help people, through your syndication or your educational program, get in the game and start having some control over their investments and their money and their time.

 

Bryce Robertson: Yea, well, I would first off just say, “Hey, go out there and get a mentor and take massive action.” Because a mentor is really going to be the person who is going to help push you over the finish line. I definitely wouldn’t say wait back and try and figure it all out yourself. If you want to get real deals done, go out there, get those deals done. You’re going to learn ten times quicker than if you’re sitting at home trying to figure it all out.

Property Works, we provide a mentoring program for people who are looking to break into the mobile home park investing space. And if mobile home parks is not the thing that you’re interested in, then I highly recommend going out and teaming up with somebody who is light years ahead of where you want to be. Teaming up with them and leveraging their experience and their contacts, and just going out there and really going for it.

I mean, no one honestly really cares if you know it all or not. Probably the only person who cares is you, in the beginning. But most of the people out there are going to honor you for your courage, and for you just going out there and going for it. And you can piggy-back the experience of your mentor and the knowledge of your mentor. And if anybody else is out there thinking, “Oh well, you’re just a small fry, you’re out of your league,” well, they’re probably just jealous anyway. And they probably wish they had the courage that you had to go out there and take massive action.

So, if you want to get in contact with me, you can reach me at my cellphone which is: 714-603-1394. You can also email me at: robertson.e.bryce@gmail.com

Or you can visit our website which is www.propertyworkzllc.com

And we can basically take good care of things from there.

John Carney: Fantastic, so there you have it. We will definitely list all of your contact information and how to track you down in the show notes which we call the ‘post-game report’ on my website. And just to elaborate a little bit more: for someone who does follow up with you, what can they expect through your program?

Bryce Robertson: They can expect to set goals and to push themselves and to be accountable for goals and to get real life, hands on experience working on deals, and really pushing to get what it is that they’re looking for.

John Carney: You don’t strike me as a fluff kind of guy. You’re going to get right into it: day one, get your hands dirty, lift something heavy, pick up that barbell.

Bryce Robertson: Yea. Absolutely.

John Carney. Ok, perfect. Before we wind this down, we have something I call ‘the two-minute drill’, sometimes it takes a little bit longer. But we have a couple of questions I’m going to throw at you. And let’s go back to what you do to continue your education. Are there any books that you have in your collection that you just can’t put down, that you have to have close by just in case you need to reference them, and that you would recommend our listeners pick up?

Bryce Robertson. Yes. I would recommend “The Unbeatable Mind” by Mark Devine. He’s an ex-navy seal who teaches us how to gain mental clarity, concentration, and awareness and intuition, how to be an authentic leader and to avoid danger and to, like, deepen our warrior spirit. It’s a really cool book, you should just get it. No matter what you do, an amazing book.

John Carney: I will second that, it is probably a top three book that I would recommend everybody. Do you listen to his podcast by any chance?

Bryce Robertson: I have not listened to his podcast. I will be definitely interested to.

John Carney: I would say you’re lucky, only because you have about a hundred episodes you can work your way through, where I have to wait every week for that one hour to be released. But yes, check it out. I’ll throw that in the show notes as well, because I find that its good listening on my commute to work.

Alright, perfect. You’ve talked a lot about your morning ritual and what you do to stay focused and motivated. Are there any other places that you draw on inspiration other than your physical activity?

Bryce Robertson: My wife. Totally. She’s probably the pillar and foundation of my life. I really love just connecting with her and leaning to her for advice and groundedness. My wife is an amazing lady and she really just gives me so much more energy in life.

John Carney: That’s fantastic. Your wife is part of your Property Works business now as well, correct?

Bryce Robertson: She works with Property Works a little bit, and her main business is as a realtor here in Southern California. But she does play a role in property works. Yes.

John Carney: I got you. So, it’s a love story at the end of the day. You met her in the Caribbean and you followed her to America.

Bryce Robertson: Yes, absolutely. We just connect on every level, and what better thing than to have a life partner that’s totally aligned with you.

John Carney: Yes, that’s fantastic and you are very fortunate. That’s a great story. What is your number one ‘come from behind’ sort of victory that you could share with our listeners and inspire them to keep going at the real estate game?

Bryce Robertson: That’s a mentor telling me that I couldn’t do the deal. I had a deal, and my money was tied up, and I had no experience in that asset class, and I had a few days to pull the deal together. And I told this to my first mentor, and he said to me, “You know you’re dreaming kiddo, it’s never going to work.” So, I fired him and turned to my next mentor. Then I had that deal under contract a few days later. And I hustled and bustled throughout escrow and I owned that asset after three months. So, my determination and tenacity was way too big for any challenge I was going to come across.

John Carney: There you go, when one person says no, maybe that just fuels you to get the deal done even more. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to share your story with us today Bryce. You’ve already told us where we can find you and I will put that in the show notes. So, there you have it.

I hope you picked up some actionable advice from Bryce Robertson at Property Works. Make sure to check out the Real Estate Locker Room Show on iTunes, Stitcher or Google Play and hit the subscribe button to ensure that you never miss out on the pro-tips from our guests.

The mission here is to help you elevate your real estate game. If you like what this show is all about, I’d be grateful if you would leave us a five-star review on iTunes or your preferred podcast platform, so that other like-minded real estate investors will be able to find the show easily. The post-game report, show notes, links and content will be posted on www.johncarneyonline/podcast and while you’re there you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, and that way you’ll get some other investing insights, tips, tricks hacks and other great stuff that comes along from time to time.

Remember to stay focused on your goals, have fun, and stay in the game. I’m your host John Carney, and until next week work hard, play hard, and profit hard.

Thank you one more time Bryce, for taking the time to share your story with our audience.

Bryce Robertson: Thanks John, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Happy investing.

(Music Out)

End Audio

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